DSMC2 Unified Dragon-X

[Jim Skinner]

Until now I have only hired Red on a project-by-project basis – I’ve owned Canon, Panasonic and Sony cameras. So I thought I would briefly share my perspective as someone looking to buy in to Red for the first time...
A lot of negative feedback about what Red are doing with this new implementation of the Dragon sensor, but from my perspective the Red landscape is looking more enticing than ever!

I have a question for you, if a little over a year from now Red introduces DSMC-3, and tells Dragon-X owners that they need to pay $5k to stay on the upgrade path (with only minor benefit for the DSMC-3 body, same sensor) would you feel that you made a good investment in Dragon-X?

This is the conundrum that Scarlet-W owners face today. This thread appears to be about 50/50 (from Scarlet-W owners) on “take my money” vs “Red stated the Scarlet-W was a DSMC-2 body, and now it’s not”. If your upgrade option could potentially last only a little over a year, would you consider this a truly upgradeable product? And if the upgradeable promise is false, why is this not priced to market?

A nominal upgrade fee, like $2k, to correct the misleading sales material for Scarlet-W (e.g. they could have known that Scarlet-W would not be in the unified product line) seems reasonable.

By the way, the upgrade option on Raven is amazing. That was priced to market, and those owners had no expectation of getting an upgrade. The Scarlet-W folks paid the extra $5-7k for the upgrade option, essentially. Which today gets you a small frame rate improvement for $5k.

Should potential buyers expect similar treatment when DSMC-3 comes out?

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

yeah, it's mind boggling, and doesn't make any financial sense for this upgrade for either camera I see. this is certainly not unifying anyone. I thought the whole point was a big incentive to consolidate red and their companies work and service flow. this won't do it and I know no one that will go this path, there is definitely no incentive.

You mean it doesn’t make sense for YOU.

“Similar” logic for current Epic-W owners - should you upgrade to DSMC2 Helium for $5k basically for higher frame rates? For me the answer was yes, and for a lot of other people as well. Do I need the features offered? Is it worth the cost? Will it help me creatively and/or financially in the long run? Those are the questions I asked when going to DSMC2 Helium.

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

This isn't marketing. You don't market things that don't make you money. And to be clear, there is no " official " upgrade path. It's a one week thing that is open to a very limited number of people. I am literally going against my own rule because I have met a few Raven owners over the last year that purchased the camera with absolutely no upgrade expectations but I have watched many of them shoot incredible things.. better things than they should be shooting just starting out, and I watch some of them get to that point when they run up against the wall being limited by their tool..mostly by the lens mount and format size.

Raven was supposed to be a drone camera and/or the lightest RED for run and gun, and it became much more to many people. So they actually legitimately needed more camera but also being in a financial situation, as most Raven owners are, that they could never afford the massive jump for some people to get into a Gemini or Helium or Monstro. And they can't go backward with anything else in that price point, even from another company, so they get stuck in this spot, even if it is more mental than reality, and that frustrates the shit out of me.

So yeah.. this one week window I am offering to Raven is 100% personal for me. Ask Brent, I had to fight for it. Its not a business ploy to sell cameras. It's me being frustrated that we have a group of customers that are quite purely, stuck.

And I am shocked how good some of the stuff is that people are shooting with Raven as their first camera. I know it sounds lame but it makes me feel like a proud father and sometimes parents do stupid things to reward their kids that probably they shouldn't do and sometimes that pisses off every other parent around them.

Being a creative is hard and most people that bought a Raven bought it not because they want to make a business out of it like a lot of people here, but they bought it because they have have a dying need to create something. Raven owners , for the most part, are just enterting this very hard business. Well it's not just a hard business.. it's frankly a totally fucked-up-shit-show of a business. With a lot of "no's" that are going to come up in front of them and I feel like if I can give something a little back to them then I feel I need to. I honestly don't mean to piss you or anyone else off when I do stupid shit like this... I promise you it comes from a good place.

No, you don’t need to apologize, but you know that. IT DRIVES ME CRAZY THAT PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM ACT LIKE TODDLERS. I know maybe I am overreacting a bit but this is ridiculous. It’s a free fucking market. Upgrade, don’t upgrade, whatever - I’m not even saying people should be grateful(which they should). I’m just saying maybe cool it a bit and think logically, not emotionally, when posting about Red’s upgrade options. Or, all of you threatening to sell your camera and get out just do it already.

 

[jordan levy]

You mean it doesn’t make sense for YOU.

“Similar” logic for current Epic-W owners - should you upgrade to DSMC2 Helium for $5k basically for higher frame rates? For me the answer was yes, and for a lot of other people as well. Do I need the features offered? Is it worth the cost? Will it help me creatively and/or financially in the long run? Those are the questions I asked when going to DSMC2 Helium.

you are quoting me out of context, i was referring to the raven upgrade option. believe me, we all, meaning the group i personally know that own ravens came to the conclusion, that involved math, that the raven upgrade didnt make sense for us. $8500 plus 700-1000 for a mount, as well we would have to upgrade our mini mags to take advantage of the new specs.
you are now talking about upgrading our current body buy paying more then we paid for the body we have. mathematically it doesnt make sense. esepcially when you see the raven kit for 14999, and the identical dragon x kit, plus a larger more expensive mag and a mount for 19,999. there is about a $3000 difference in pkgs considering the included items. so this was thought about logically, as logically as it could be. so yeah, i think you are the one being emotional.

Though, if i had a scarlet -w, id probably do it. $5k and i probably already have a mount, and i can get out of the gray scarlet body

 

[Spencer Weaver]

Do you get a new body if you're upgrading from SW? Or same body just different panels and swapped internals? I see the Dragon-X is all black.

It was stated that you get new outter metal panels but they use some of your internals and your existing sensor. The boards are then upgraded—which apparently is a major part of the front panel where the sensor and boards are housed.

A nominal upgrade fee, like $2k, to correct the misleading sales material for Scarlet-W (e.g. they could have known that Scarlet-W would not be in the unified product line) seems reasonable.

I feel like you have a few fatal flaws here. First of all, when the Scarlet-W came out it was NEVER pushed by RED to be anywhere near the power of the Weapon cameras. It was always understood that the S-W was limited in frame rate, compression ratios, bit rate, etc. It shared the new DSMC2 body design, but was the very little brother to more powerful Weapon Magnisum, Carbon, VV, etc.
What the Scarlet-W was (for me and a lot of people) was an AMAZING INCREDIBLE upgrade from the Raven. The Scarlet-W is perhaps the best deal RED ever offered. You could get in to the fully functional DSMC2 physical body design at an amazing, never seen before, price. And Raven pre-orders got to stand first in line!


2nd, I'm sorry but as much as $5k is a lot of dough... it's not really reasonable that RED could possibly offer the upgrade of all those internals for anywhere near $2k. I could see a $4,000 upgrade being reasonable... but $5k actually makes the most sense. I mean they're bascially valuing your used camera at $10,000 and there is NO WAY you can sell a Scarlet-W on the used market right now for $10,000. Go ahead and try. Most I've seen list for $9k and they don't move fast at all. So, RED is giving you a better deal then if you just sold the brain yourself.

Now, that said... I wish they would give you that $10k evaluation on a Gemini upgrade! haha.

 

[Mario Gonsalves]

It was stated that you get new outter metal panels but they use some of your internals and your existing sensor. The boards are then upgraded—which apparently is a major part of the front panel where the sensor and boards are housed.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Jim Skinner]

It was stated that you get new outter metal panels but they use some of your internals and your existing sensor. The boards are then upgraded—which apparently is a major part of the front panel where the sensor and boards are housed.



I feel like you have a few fatal flaws here. First of all, when the Scarlet-W came out it was NEVER pushed by RED to be anywhere near the power of the Weapon cameras. It was always understood that the S-W was limited in frame rate, compression ratios, bit rate, etc. It shared the new DSMC2 body design, but was the very little brother to more powerful Weapon Magnisum, Carbon, VV, etc.
What the Scarlet-W was (for me and a lot of people) was an AMAZING INCREDIBLE upgrade from the Raven. The Scarlet-W is perhaps the best deal RED ever offered. You could get in to the fully functional DSMC2 physical body design at an amazing, never seen before, price. And Raven pre-orders got to stand first in line!


2nd, I'm sorry but as much as $5k is a lot of dough... it's not really reasonable that RED could possibly offer the upgrade of all those internals for anywhere near $2k. I could see a $4,000 upgrade being reasonable... but $5k actually makes the most sense. I mean they're bascially valuing your used camera at $10,000 and there is NO WAY you can sell a Scarlet-W on the used market right now for $10,000. Go ahead and try. Most I've seen list for $9k and they don't move fast at all. So, RED is giving you a better deal then if you just sold the brain yourself.

Now, that said... I wish they would give you that $10k evaluation on a Gemini upgrade! haha.

I definitely respect your view, as a Scarlet-W owner. You have as much skin in the game as I do. So I am super curious to know, are you going to fork over the $5k?

 

[Bob Gundu]

I shot these several several years ago, but there is something gritty about the Dragon sensor, thats hard for me to let go.

 

[emil_h]

William, I'm using a Scarlet-W right now but before we used a Scarlet-X, Red One, etc...

Here's what I would like to see because you asked so ;-)

- Red should stop releasing a new body every year which devaluates all the previous ones, upsets a bunch of the actual owners and brings almost no improvement (I mean by that looking at the final picture projected on a cinema screen, not by looking at the specifications). Arri doesn't do that and the Arri Mini/Alexa picture is still beautiful and widely used by professionals. You don't see almost no Red in the Academy nominees, and there's a reason.
- If Red really believes in their ridiculous and pretentious marketing moto "Obsolescence Obsolete", they should put an included warranty of 5 years on every new brain sold. Why a customer would have to pay for an extra warranty because Red isn't sure of the reliability of their cameras ? Every other manufacturer (Sony, Canon, Panasonic) for any cheaper camera has a better customer service
- For the very same reason, they should be able to repair their previous models, Red One included, for at least 20 years. Of course it would be easier to do if they didn't release a new camera every year. Unless Obsolescence isn't very obsolete ?
- As for the cameras : 3 models are enough : entry (4K), medium (6K) and high (8K) level. And they update them every 5 years, giving the possibility to every previous owner some upgrade paths.
- The Red phone will be abandoned , it's just a matter of time till they realize no one cares about another phone except some spoiled children or immature fanboys. And 3D is dead. In fact 3D has never been alive, a simple look at the Cinema History will prove that. It was just some punctual marketing things, nothing lasted.
- Instead of the phone, if Red really wants to build something useful, they could release a still camera, very simple, with a full frame 8K sensor, no back LCD, just a good EVF, no burst mode more than 5 fps (above that you use a Red camera instead) and sell it for $4K. They have all the components to do it, just cripple the actual 8K sensor a little bit. Something with interchangeable mounts (EF, E, Nikon, Pentax, etc...) It would be way more useful than the phone, especially if they release a Monochrome version as well.

Kristin

I don't even know where to begin with all of this nonsense, but Kudos to Phil for even entertaining this.

 

[emil_h]

you are quoting me out of context, i was referring to the raven upgrade option. believe me, we all, meaning the group i personally know that own ravens came to the conclusion, that involved math, that the raven upgrade didnt make sense for us. $8500 plus 700-1000 for a mount, as well we would have to upgrade our mini mags to take advantage of the new specs.
you are now talking about upgrading our current body buy paying more then we paid for the body we have. mathematically it doesnt make sense. esepcially when you see the raven kit for 14999, and the identical dragon x kit, plus a larger more expensive mag and a mount for 19,999. there is about a $3000 difference in pkgs considering the included items. so this was thought about logically, as logically as it could be. so yeah, i think you are the one being emotional.

Though, if i had a scarlet -w, id probably do it. $5k and i probably already have a mount, and i can get out of the gray scarlet body

Exactly and Andrew comparing the EW trade-in to this offer is not even remotely the same. Just use common sense and maybe a calculator if math isn't your strong point.

 

[emil_h]

I have a question for you, if a little over a year from now Red introduces DSMC-3, and tells Dragon-X owners that they need to pay $5k to stay on the upgrade path (with only minor benefit for the DSMC-3 body, same sensor) would you feel that you made a good investment in Dragon-X?

This is the conundrum that Scarlet-W owners face today. This thread appears to be about 50/50 (from Scarlet-W owners) on “take my money” vs “Red stated the Scarlet-W was a DSMC-2 body, and now it’s not”. If your upgrade option could potentially last only a little over a year, would you consider this a truly upgradeable product? And if the upgradeable promise is false, why is this not priced to market?

A nominal upgrade fee, like $2k, to correct the misleading sales material for Scarlet-W (e.g. they could have known that Scarlet-W would not be in the unified product line) seems reasonable.

By the way, the upgrade option on Raven is amazing. That was priced to market, and those owners had no expectation of getting an upgrade. The Scarlet-W folks paid the extra $5-7k for the upgrade option, essentially. Which today gets you a small frame rate improvement for $5k.

Should potential buyers expect similar treatment when DSMC-3 comes out?

First off the Scarlet-W IS a DSMC2 camera so no one mislead you. If you mean the SW isn't "unified" this was something that the company thought of after all of these cameras came out. The upgrade offer isn't mandatory and infact it's an incredible gesture even if someone like myself sometimes doesn't agree with the price structure. Lastly, if you think the Raven upgrade is amazing but the SW isn't you are living in a different universe than me.

 

[Jim Skinner]

First off the Scarlet-W IS a DSMC2 camera so no one mislead you so stop that sh*t. If you mean the SW isn't "unified" this was something that the company thought of after all of these cameras came out. The upgrade offer isn't mandatory and infact it's an incredible gesture even if someone like myself sometimes doesn't agree with the price structure. Lastly, if you think the Raven upgrade is amazing but the SW isn't you are living in a different universe than me which probably makes a ton of sense since I don't agree with any of your points.

Which camera do you have Emil? My comment is really for the Scarlet-W owners, who have to make a decision before our cameras go into “unsupported land”. My Scarlet MX has been living there for a couple years now. Are you in this group? The group that’s been called “toddlers” on this thread, told to “stop that sh*t”, really hostile stuff for a camera community. Are you in the more professional tier we can look forward to joining if we buy up into Helium/Monstro?

 

[Aaron Lochert]

I think the hostility to those that were confused is unwarranted.

I can sympathize with those that got confused. Weapon, Epic-W, Scarlet-W, and Raven were all DSMC2 at some point (and still are, technically). All the modular accessories are interchangeable (besides the lens mount and OLPF on Raven) so there was a sense of parity between those bodies. Not only were the Epic-W and Scarlet-W considered DSMC2, the -W distinction led a lot of people to thinking "Weapon" especially because the cameras had the W Skull engraved on the side plate which everyone associated with the "Weapon" branding. RED's choice to use the letter W was an odd one.

Then when Armor-W came out, people were upset to hear their -W marked cameras were not Armor-W compatible. So in this instance, the -W actually does apply to Weapon. So there was confusion "Does -W mean weapon or does it not?" And now with the DSMC2 2018 line, people are upset again, Armor-W confirming that current DSMC2 cameras are Armor-W compatible, but old ones that are also named DSMC2 are not. So DSMC2 now means two things in two different contexts: body design only (which includes most), or body+internals which only include current line.

I really wish RED would have called the current lineup DSMC2.5 or something to that effect. It would have indicated to the people that it's a revision on a current product line and there will be some things specific to them moving forward that will not apply to DSMC2.0 bodies, but certain things would remain cross compatible like accessories.

I've been following RED every step of the way because I'm a fucking RED nerd, but even I get confused sometimes. I would expect anyone that doesn't have as much time to dedicate to reading the forums would get lost somewhere along the way.

 

[Jim Skinner]

I think the hostility to those that were confused is unwarranted.

I can sympathize with those that got confused. Weapon, Epic-W, Scarlet-W, and Raven were all DSMC2 at some point (and still are, technically). All the modular accessories are interchangeable (besides the lens mount and OLPF on Raven) so there was a sense of parity between those bodies. Not only were the Epic-W and Scarlet-W considered DSMC2, the -W distinction led a lot of people to thinking "Weapon" especially because the cameras had the W Skull engraved on the side plate which everyone associated with the "Weapon" branding. RED's choice to use the letter W was an odd one.

Then when Armor-W came out, people were upset to hear their -W marked cameras were not Armor-W compatible. So in this instance, the -W actually does apply to Weapon. So there was confusion "Does -W mean weapon or does it not?" And now with the DSMC2 2018 line, people are upset again, Armor-W confirming that current DSMC2 cameras are Armor-W compatible, but old ones that are also named DSMC2 are not. So DSMC2 now means two things in two different contexts: body design only (which includes most), or body+internals which only include current line.

I really wish RED would have called the current lineup DSMC2.5 or something to that effect. It would have indicated to the people that it's a revision on a current product line and there will be some things specific to them moving forward that will not apply to DSMC2.0 bodies, but certain things would remain cross compatible like accessories.

I've been following RED every step of the way because I'm a fucking RED nerd, but even I get confused sometimes. I would expect anyone that doesn't have as much time to dedicate to reading the forums would get lost somewhere along the way.

Thanks for the well written clarification Aaron.

 

[kevinjoelson]

I think the hostility to those that were confused is unwarranted.

I can sympathize with those that got confused. Weapon, Epic-W, Scarlet-W, and Raven were all DSMC2 at some point (and still are, technically). All the modular accessories are interchangeable (besides the lens mount and OLPF on Raven) so there was a sense of parity between those bodies. Not only were the Epic-W and Scarlet-W considered DSMC2, the -W distinction led a lot of people to thinking "Weapon" especially because the cameras had the W Skull engraved on the side plate which everyone associated with the "Weapon" branding. RED's choice to use the letter W was an odd one.

Then when Armor-W came out, people were upset to hear their -W marked cameras were not Armor-W compatible. So in this instance, the -W actually does apply to Weapon. So there was confusion "Does -W mean weapon or does it not?" And now with the DSMC2 2018 line, people are upset again, Armor-W confirming that current DSMC2 cameras are Armor-W compatible, but old ones that are also named DSMC2 are not. So DSMC2 now means two things in two different contexts: body design only (which includes most), or body+internals which only include current line.

I really wish RED would have called the current lineup DSMC2.5 or something to that effect. It would have indicated to the people that it's a revision on a current product line and there will be some things specific to them moving forward that will not apply to DSMC2.0 bodies, but certain things would remain cross compatible like accessories.

I've been following RED every step of the way because I'm a fucking RED nerd, but even I get confused sometimes. I would expect anyone that doesn't have as much time to dedicate to reading the forums would get lost somewhere along the way.

Amen.

 

[Kristin Stewart]

Hi Kristin, I'd like to tackle a few of your points and desires from a slightly more observational perspective (if you don't mind).

Hi Phil,

Of course I don't mind different opinions, on the contrary, it's wonderful to get different point of views, even if we don't agree on some. I know I sound harsh sometimes, but I also say "wonderful !" when I think it is, and Red is also doing great things, otherwise I wouldn't be a Red customer ;-)

Cheers,

Kristin

Hi Kristin, thanks for your answer and fair comment to you! )
It's interesting that one Scarlet-W user is not so happy and another is very happy!

Yes William ;-) In fact I'm very pleased with the Scarlet-W, and I was also pleased with the Scarlet-X. It's just Red's upgrade policy which pisses me off ;-)

It would be interesting to know the real numbers about those upgrades : for each camera, how many owners upgraded, sold it or kept it.

Kristin

 

[Adam Hale]

I have a question for you, if a little over a year from now Red introduces DSMC-3, and tells Dragon-X owners that they need to pay $5k to stay on the upgrade path (with only minor benefit for the DSMC-3 body, same sensor) would you feel that you made a good investment in Dragon-X?

Good question. I think that if in a years time I had the option to bump to DSMC3 with an improvement in frame rate which also got me half way towards the next upgrade, so long as it was an optional upgrade, I would be happy. The key to that, though, is whether the upgrade was optional or not, and wether it had a time limit. By optional I mean, if my DSMC2 camera remained on that upgrade path as it was - with incremental gains for incremental fees - I think it would make sense.

I get what you’re saying – but unless I’ve missed something SW owners don’t have to pay to stay on an upgrade path, they’re already on it, right? Previous to Dragon-X the next upgrade was Gemini and I think it was over $10k (my figures are rough). Now SW owners have a choice, stay where they are and upgrade later, bump up for higher frame rates and lower compression for $5k, or jump to a newer sensor for $10k, or they even have the option to bump up in stages. Am I missing something? It all looks good to me.

 

[Karel Šimůnek]

Guys? What is the compression in 5K WS at 120fps? I see 96fps 5K Full Format 8:1 on RED website. Thanks

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

you are quoting me out of context, i was referring to the raven upgrade option. believe me, we all, meaning the group i personally know that own ravens came to the conclusion, that involved math, that the raven upgrade didnt make sense for us. $8500 plus 700-1000 for a mount, as well we would have to upgrade our mini mags to take advantage of the new specs.
you are now talking about upgrading our current body buy paying more then we paid for the body we have. mathematically it doesnt make sense. esepcially when you see the raven kit for 14999, and the identical dragon x kit, plus a larger more expensive mag and a mount for 19,999. there is about a $3000 difference in pkgs considering the included items. so this was thought about logically, as logically as it could be. so yeah, i think you are the one being emotional.

Though, if i had a scarlet -w, id probably do it. $5k and i probably already have a mount, and i can get out of the gray scarlet body

I took your complaint out of context, S-W to D-X is what I was referring to, my mistake.

However, most of your other points are based on logic I can’t get behind. First, are you deciding between the Raven kit and Dragon-X Kit now? If not, those kit prices do not support any argument for or against upgrading from Raven to Dragon-X. The math to go from R to D-X may not make sense if all of these offerings(price you paid for Raven / new D-X upgrade) were announced at the same time, agreed. But they were not. How long have you been shooting on your Raven? What has been your ROI? Have you left those numbers out of your equation or are they figured in? I haven’t seen that discussed, but I could have missed it. Thise are important numbers that I consider when making financial, “math” decisions. Will projections based on those numbers increase or decrease with an upgrade?

Emil, really? Insults? Whatever.

 

[jordan levy]

I took your complaint out of context, S-W to D-X is what I was referring to, my mistake.

However, most of your other points are based on logic I can’t get behind. First, are you deciding between the Raven kit and Dragon-X Kit now? If not, those kit prices do not support any argument for or against upgrading from Raven to Dragon-X. The math to go from R to D-X may not make sense if all of these offerings(price you paid for Raven / new D-X upgrade) were announced at the same time, agreed. But they were not. How long have you been shooting on your Raven? What has been your ROI? Have you left those numbers out of your equation or are they figured in? I haven’t seen that discussed, but I could have missed it. Thise are important numbers that I consider when making financial, “math” decisions. Will projections based on those numbers increase or decrease with an upgrade?

Emil, really? Insults? Whatever.

im not deciding btwn kits at all, i have much more then the raven kit already, but i was just pointing out the difference in kits is technically $3k and even double that would be an ok deal for raven upgrade. it was really just to point out how hard the raven upgrade is, since we need a mount and highend cards as well as the body, its basically a full trade in of all gear.

also, ive had my raven on a few professional shows as a b or c cam, but i really dont fight to shoot on red much since i dont own an A camera set up and dont get much for the raven to make it make sense, my choice, and the raven winds up being more of a personal project and director/producer favor camera.

as for calling out Emil on insults, well thats exactly how i took your post to me, and your post about me directly after to Jarred, insulting.
i guess dont do on to others...