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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DSMC2 Unified Dragon-X

Is there a difference between a sensor upgrade and a sensor swap??

Because I see there is an option for a sensor upgrade from Dragon-X to Gemini for $5k.

I'm currently Scarlet-W and would like to eventually be Gemini. Can't afford the $12.5k today. But If I upgraded to the Dragon-X now for $5k and then sometime later had the option to upgrade to the Gemini for $5k... then that might be a sell for me.
 
Brent@RED said:
Any and all official upgrade paths are always found here.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know there's still an upgrade path, but are there any plans to end this upgrade path any time soon? Or is this open in order to always have a door open for all owners into the unified path?
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Yes, I know there's still an upgrade path, but are there any plans to end this upgrade path any time soon? Or is this open in order to always have a door open for all owners into the unified path?
Click to expand...

Brent said not days, not weeks, probably months :) and then they're gonna discontinue the old "dsmc2" line with no ipp2 support. You can even buy the Raven Sigma Kit with the dragon-x, and I think they're going more premium, the "original" raven price was crazy low.

The only strange thing it's that they didn't go 6k with the dragon. It was S35, almost identical to gemini sensor size, maybe it was too good to be their entry level dsmc2 ipp2 camera eheh ;)
 
These are my other thoughts on how the math might look for Scarlet-W owners (and some notes on Raven owners)

$12.5 gets you a Gemini
$5k gets you Dragon-X

The dragon-x bascially gets you IPP2 and higher frame rates/bitrate/better compression

or you can spend $15k out right (just $2.5k more than the gemini upgrade) and buy the Dragon-X outright

***And walk away with TWO cameras***


So, if you're Scarlet-W with a dragon sensor... it either makes sense to stay where you are or buy a Dragon-X outright letting your Scarlet-W become a backup or 2nd camera - both with matching sensors. One with better frame rates and IPP2.


If you're a Raven owner and want to upgrade, again you're possibly better off buying the Dragon-X outright and letting your Raven fall into the roll of backup/2nd camera.



Lots of thoughts on this for sure.


For the Scarlet-W owner Is IPP2 and faster framer rates alone worth $5k? On one hand, it certainly could be. There is also potential seen and unforeseen value in being in the "unified" DMSC2 system.


Thoughts?
 
I don't really understand the point, for a Scarlet-W owner, to upgrade to this. Unified DSCM2 ? What's the point, all the current accessories already work with the Scarlet-W. You spend $5K to get the same picture, maybe higher frame rates ? It's quite confusing but I'm not an expert.
 
Spencer Weaver said:
These are my other thoughts on how the math might look for Scarlet-W owners (and some notes on Raven owners)

$12.5 gets you a Gemini
$5k gets you Dragon-X

The dragon-x bascially gets you IPP2 and higher frame rates/bitrate/better compression

or you can spend $15k out right (just $2.5k more than the gemini upgrade) and buy the Dragon-X outright

***And walk away with TWO cameras***


So, if you're Scarlet-W with a dragon sensor... it either makes sense to stay where you are or buy a Dragon-X outright letting your Scarlet-W become a backup or 2nd camera - both with matching sensors. One with better frame rates and IPP2.


If you're a Raven owner and want to upgrade, again you're possibly better off buying the Dragon-X outright and letting your Raven fall into the roll of backup/2nd camera.



Lots of thoughts on this for sure.


For the Scarlet-W owner Is IPP2 and faster framer rates alone worth $5k? On one hand, it certainly could be. There is also potential seen and unforeseen value in being in the "unified" DMSC2 system.


Thoughts?
Click to expand...

yeah, it's mind boggling, and doesn't make any financial sense for this upgrade for either camera I see. this is certainly not unifying anyone. I thought the whole point was a big incentive to consolidate red and their companies work and service flow. this won't do it and I know no one that will go this path, there is definitely no incentive.
 
You can't leave out the benefits of ProRes 422 HQ at 4K and Avid DNxHR HQX at 4K, plus monitoring 33-cubed LUTs, and a lighter BRAIN; on top of all the higher frame rate, lower compression, and IPP2 options.
 
Kristin Stewart said:
I don't really understand the point, for a Scarlet-W owner, to upgrade to this. Unified DSCM2 ? What's the point, all the current accessories already work with the Scarlet-W. You spend $5K to get the same picture, maybe higher frame rates ? It's quite confusing but I'm not an expert.
Click to expand...

Well one of the major advantages is the sensor upgrade and/or swap deal through RED ARMOR. You’re also buying into the ability to keep upgrading it later on.

But of course, that’s also a money question. And keeping the Scarlet-W and just buying a new camera whenever you feel like it is always a valid option 😉
 
Luca Perin said:
Brent said not days, not weeks, probably months :) and then they're gonna discontinue the old "dsmc2" line with no ipp2 support. You can even buy the Raven Sigma Kit with the dragon-x, and I think they're going more premium, the "original" raven price was crazy low.

The only strange thing it's that they didn't go 6k with the dragon. It was S35, almost identical to gemini sensor size, maybe it was too good to be their entry level dsmc2 ipp2 camera eheh ;)
Click to expand...

Could always be a reason, but of course sensor yield is another big thing in keeping the price down. And it might not be the perfect choice for current scarlet-w owners, but it makes more sense for RED in keeping everything unified and reducing part costs by bigger bulk purchases. And through that every RED owner wins in the long run. Phasing out the scarlet and offering a new entry priced unified DSMC2 brain makes total sense! Even if current Scarlet-W owners don’t want to take the upgrade road. And don’t forget - it’s a nice offer if you feel like you’d rather had bought the X instead of the Scarlet-W. For everyone else, just stick to what you got. Your current picture quality is going nowhere.
 
Scarlet-W was not part of the ARMOR-W offer, because the internal boards can’t carry the data load for the „bigger” sensors.
 
More thoughts...

This could actually a good deal for Raven owners who fit a certain category. For instance: I was originally a Raven pre-order for $6k.... for the price of $4k more I changed my pre-order to the Scarlet-W becuase I wanted the ability to swap lens mounts. (the 5K was also important to get to the super35 crop range) My thought at the time was I'll spend the money "in case" I ever need to swap lens mounts. And I'm glad I did that.

Now, for original Raven Pre-order owners who decided not to make that decision back then... here is your chance again! And you can get into this Dragon-X DSMC2 unified system for actually a little less $$$ than I can!

Today your total paid would be $6k + $8.5k for the Dragon-X

Whereas an original Scarlet-W order would land at $10K + $5k


So basically... you've had a much lower risk this entire time and if during all this time you've decided that hey you don't actually need the ability to swap lens mounts and you're cool with the 4.5k and your frame rates.... then there is no reason for you to switch. Stay as you are.

But if you've outgrown your Raven and your business model has proven that... then, by all means, this upgrade is killer for you and a great way to go "next level"

In other words... if I hadn't made the decision to upgrade my pre-order from Raven to Scarlet-W all those moons ago... I would be ALL OVER THIS and totally upgrade now.

The reasons to go from Raven to Dragon-X are huge!


However, I'm still thinking the line between the function of the Scarlet-W and the Dragon-X is a much finer line in my mind.
 
Shaeden Gallegos said:
You can't leave out the benefits of ProRes 422 HQ at 4K and Avid DNxHR HQX at 4K, plus monitoring 33-cubed LUTs, and a lighter BRAIN; on top of all the higher frame rate, lower compression, and IPP2 options.
Click to expand...

And this!!!
 
Thanks Patrick, I start to see the light thanks to you :001_rolleyes:

But I guess it's still not appealing if you concentrate on the picture you can already produce with a Scarlet-W.
 
I don’t know, I thought they would go for the lower end and phase out the Raven with its cropped sensor. Other than the used market, there’s no starting point for the RED ecosystem anymore. This is just another camera that’s now only $5,000 more than that camera I already couldn’t afford. Oh well, if it helps lower the used market price of DSMC1 Epic cameras then at least that helps. :wink:
 
Kristin Stewart said:
Thanks Patrick, I start to see the light thanks to you :001_rolleyes:

But I guess it's still not appealing if you concentrate on the picture you can already produce with a Scarlet-W.
Click to expand...

Sure, the line between Scarlet-W and and X is a fine one, but it’s still undeniably better. If there’s a desire to upgrade everybody has to decide and weigh in for themselves. But it’s cool, that RED still continues to offer the trade-ins! So everybody has a choice.
 
but the difference in brain's cost is 8950 for the raven and 14950 for the dragon x.
only a $6k difference. and for scarlets it's only like a 2k difference.

not to mention with the raven you need to buy a mount, so there's another 1k.

so 9500 to upgrade the raven. wow.

makes way more sense to sell then to upgrade. I also just thought this would be helping out red just as much as it will be helping out customers.
so, yeah, I don't know. doesn't make sense for anyone I know.
 
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Zack Birlew said:
I don’t know, I thought they would go for the lower end and phase out the Raven with its cropped sensor. Other than the used market, there’s no starting point for the RED ecosystem anymore. This is just another camera that’s now only $5,000 more than that camera I already couldn’t afford.
Click to expand...


The used market IS a good starting point. Or buy a cheap(er) competitors camera, work your way up and get your dream camera once you’re there. RED’s decision to do it the way they did is absolutely the best way IMHO (the unification I mean) If they find a new way to create a starter package for 9.900$ some day, I still believe they should do it. But not if that means all the other cameras have to become more expensive because of that. Which is basically the way it was before the unified situation.
 
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