DSMC2 Unified Dragon-X

[Phil Holland]

No offense to raven owners but If the raven gets an upgrade path....

Fascinating opinion. I actually don't see how an $8500-ish upgrade "window" actually hurts any line of these cameras as it doesn't impeed on any price point. RED also didn't have a path for RED One owners to get into DSMC2 and was clearly stated, but they offered a way to continue that journey.

Do upgrades in general not work for you?

 

[Björn Benckert]

This release makes the old now, no not available, CF woven dsmc2 6k Dragon somewhat more special.

And as I see it brings back some value to dsmc1 dragons.

 

[Domenic Barbero]

Any chance there will be the original 6k version coming? Also with dragon is there ability in the future to do dual native iso with it as an iteration?

 

[Scott Balkum]

There is an old phrase "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" - For those that don't know what that means, I'll explain. You can tell how old a horse is by looking at the wearing of the teeth. So when someone gives you a horse, you don't start complaining about how old it may be or how it could be better. You say thank you.

Honestly, what other camera manufacturer is offering upgrades of their products? If it doesn't make financial sense to you, you have a choice to keep what you have and enjoy shooting with it. If you feel you can get more money by selling your camera outright, by all means, do that if you want. What Red did today was give you an option you didn't have before. They gave you a choice. Its ok to not like it. Its ok to not do it. But don't look the gift horse in the mouth.

I love shooting Red. I love how innovative and forward thinking Red is. I love that they try like crazy to not leave people behind giving them at least 1 option they didn't have before or with any other camera company.

Love what you do. Love what you shoot. Shoot what you love.

 

[William Ciani]

Fascinating opinion. I actually don't see how an $8500-ish upgrade "window" actually hurts any line of these cameras as it doesn't impeed on any price point. RED also didn't have a path for RED One owners to get into DSMC2 and was clearly stated, but they offered a way to continue that journey.

Do upgrades in general not work for you?

No it’s none of that at all. In my personal pov the last few product cycles have seemed to be hyped on one set of pretenses then after the dust has settled (and checks have cleared) things change.... once or twice in a while wouldn’t bother me. Now though, to me it’s starting to feel more about bottom line and corporate marketing strategies and less like the”fuck formal” company I bought into years ago. Maybe it’s just me?

 

[Aaron Almquist]

You have to be brain dead to not upgrade from SW to X. If you don't, all SW owners will soon be viewed by competitent Producers as Raven owners. $5k is nothing if you work full time in this industry. If you don't have plans of being able to eventually afford 8k you shouldn't be in this industry.

 

[Phil Holland]

Maybe it’s just me?

Well I don't know how long you've been tuned into RED as a company, I see the forum date of 2014, but that's just here. But a few things from my POV.

Literally one of the quotes Jim and Jarred have echoed over the years is "everything in life changes". This mainly originates and applies to specs and delivery dates in the past. i.e. Scarlet 2/3" for instance.

To that what I see is a company adapting to it's user base often. Especially now with different tiers of cameras. I'm a mod here and abroad and I have seen the cries from Raven owners who have had professional success and want to move up to more powerful cameras. And many thought Raven was a dead end, whereas every other RED owner gets the side benefits of having an upgrade path which for many has saved tens of thousands of dollars over the years.

RED hasn't switched too many things around, there's been a couple moderately frustrating moments often adapting to current market trends, internal manufacturing or workflow enhancements, or just stuff that's tied to competitive progression.

Most of the efforts in my mind towards upgrade offers tend to benefit RED owners. Sometimes they are tricky decisions, especially with multiple camera options. But you have access to those decisions where in many other ecosystems there is simply no decision other than to buy new, sell old.

To each their own. And Jarred has stated it's going to be a small window for the Raven upgrades, real small. This is RED and likely Jarred helping out the eager few who want to step up a level.

I view this as a good thing. And again, this isn't a free upgrade or hurting current camera prices. It's providing a short time for action to those who previously had no action to take.

 

[William Ciani]

Well I don't know how long you've been tuned into RED as a company, I see the forum date of 2014, but that's just here. But a few things from my POV.

I can definietly see your points. I’m sure we could debate the topic at length. I’m all for change. If things are shifting one way, own it. Don’t say your different than the other guys if your moving toward being just like them. That’s my point of view and I’m sticking to it.

 

[Subrata Sen]

I so wished that the new Dragon sensor would have been 4:3 like the Gemini to accommodate Anamorphic lenses. I would have upgraded my S-W right away.

I am a bit confused about this S-W to Dragon-X upgrade though. The upgrade says: "RED offers a Board Upgrade from the SCARLET-W RED DRAGON 5K (and SCARLET-W RED DRAGON 5K Monochrome) to the DSMC2 DRAGON-X camera. The upgrade replaces boards in the original BRAIN. During the upgrade, the exterior panels and RED coin will also be updated to match the DSMC2 design."

So it is basically upgrading the board and the external stickers on my current camera. I am not getting a new camera and my sensor remains the same.

On the other hand, there is no "upgrade" from S-W to Gemini. It is a trade-in. Which means, I send in my S-W and get a brand new Gemini.

Why is that? If S-W can be "upgraded" to Dragon-X, why can't there be a upgrade to Gemini instead of "trade-in"? I mean, my camera remains the same, the board and Gemini sensor is added? Is it because Gemini sensor size is different? If the sensor size difference is hurting us, how can we call Dragon-x "unified DSMC2"?

I find it strange that while Monstro, Helium and Gemini have the same look (written DSMC2) on the front panel of the camera, Dragon-X doesn't have the sticker. The Red coin shows DSMC2, however.

 

[Jarred Land]

No offense to raven owners but If the raven gets an upgrade path to this after every single red sales rep I spoke with used the “there will never be any upgrade path with that model” as a selling point to justify the (at the time) massive price difference to the other cameras, I think I will be done with this company and it’s bs marketing ploys.

This isn't marketing. You don't market things that don't make you money. And to be clear, there is no " official " upgrade path. It's a one week thing that is open to a very limited number of people. I am literally going against my own rule because I have met a few Raven owners over the last year that purchased the camera with absolutely no upgrade expectations but I have watched many of them shoot incredible things.. better things than they should be shooting just starting out, and I watch some of them get to that point when they run up against the wall being limited by their tool..mostly by the lens mount and format size.

Raven was supposed to be a drone camera and/or the lightest RED for run and gun, and it became much more to many people. So they actually legitimately needed more camera but also being in a financial situation, as most Raven owners are, that they could never afford the massive jump for some people to get into a Gemini or Helium or Monstro. And they can't go backward with anything else in that price point, even from another company, so they get stuck in this spot, even if it is more mental than reality, and that frustrates the shit out of me.

So yeah.. this one week window I am offering to Raven is 100% personal for me. Ask Brent, I had to fight for it. Its not a business ploy to sell cameras. It's me being frustrated that we have a group of customers that are quite purely, stuck.

And I am shocked how good some of the stuff is that people are shooting with Raven as their first camera. I know it sounds lame but it makes me feel like a proud father and sometimes parents do stupid things to reward their kids that probably they shouldn't do and sometimes that pisses off every other parent around them.

Being a creative is hard and most people that bought a Raven bought it not because they want to make a business out of it like a lot of people here, but they bought it because they have have a dying need to create something. Raven owners , for the most part, are just enterting this very hard business. Well it's not just a hard business.. it's frankly a totally fucked-up-shit-show of a business. With a lot of "no's" that are going to come up in front of them and I feel like if I can give something a little back to them then I feel I need to. I honestly don't mean to piss you or anyone else off when I do stupid shit like this... I promise you it comes from a good place.

 

[Subrata Sen]

Jarred, I whole-heartedly support your decision to allow an upgrade path for Raven.
I initially booked a Raven to get into the Red eco-system. Since Raven delivery was getting delayed by months, I changed to S-W.
Now that I am into Red, I know the camera's worth.
But I could have been a Raven owner and got stuck if delivery of Raven was not delayed at that time. Many people who got their Raven and have tasted Red, now feel the need to upgrade. Like I do with my S-W. And Raven owners should be given a chance.

That's a great gesture.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

This isn't marketing. You don't market things that don't make you money. And to be clear, there is no " official " upgrade path. It's a one week thing that is open to a very limited number of people. I am literally going against my own rule because I have met a few Raven owners over the last year that purchased the camera with absolutely no upgrade expectations but I have watched many of them shoot incredible things.. better things than they should be shooting just starting out, and I watch some of them get to that point when they run up against the wall being limited by their tool..mostly by the lens mount and format size.

Raven was supposed to be a drone camera and/or the lightest RED for run and gun, and it became much more to many people. So they actually legitimately needed more camera but also being in a financial situation, as most Raven owners are, that they could never afford the massive jump for some people to get into a Gemini or Helium or Monstro. And they can't go backward with anything else in that price point, even from another company, so they get stuck in this spot, even if it is more mental than reality, and that frustrates the shit out of me.

So yeah.. this one week window I am offering to Raven is 100% personal for me. Ask Brent, I had to fight for it. Its not a business ploy to sell cameras. It's me being frustrated that we have a group of customers that are quite purely, stuck.

And I am shocked how good some of the stuff is that people are shooting with Raven as their first camera. I know it sounds lame but it makes me feel like a proud father and sometimes parents do stupid things to reward their kids that probably they shouldn't do and sometimes that pisses off every other parent around them.

Being a creative is hard and most people that bought a Raven bought it not because they want to make a business out of it like a lot of people here, but they bought it because they have have a dying need to create something. Raven owners , for the most part, are just enterting this very hard business. Well it's not just a hard business.. it's frankly a totally fucked-up-shit-show of a business. With a lot of "no's" that are going to come up in front of them and I feel like if I can give something a little back to them then I feel I need to. I honestly don't mean to piss you or anyone else off when I do stupid shit like this... I promise you it comes from a good place.

Everything written here makes me love RED all the more... Not as a company, but as a select very small group of individual with a mission and a truly good placed interest for the end customer.

You rock Jarred!!

 

[Jarred Land]

During the upgrade, the exterior panels and RED coin will also be updated to match the DSMC2 design."

So it is basically upgrading the board and the external stickers on my current camera.

That top part where it says Dragon-X isn't a sticker, It's engraved metal, and very specific to the sensor alignment and why that whole front piece you can kind of consider part of the sensor.

So every unified DMSC2 has the DSMC2 coin ( the metal round coin with the Red ball in the middle of it ) , and then the name of the sensor on the top part. When you upgrade or side-grade to different sensors, that whole front piece goes with the sensor. It actually all matches now if you look at the lineup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjXmgPWp4Bg&feature=youtu.be

Is it because Gemini sensor size is different? If the sensor size difference is hurting us, how can we call Dragon-x "unified DSMC2"?

Yes.. all the sensor sizes are different.. which is kind of the point of it all. You choose which is best for you, sensor size being part of that decision.

 

[Matt Bass]

LOVE that the Dragon is in the Unified body! Jarred - It would be extra awesome if 6k Dragon DSMC2 owners - carbon/magnesium could also get the UNIFIED BODY !!!

 

[Subrata Sen]

Yes.. all the sensor sizes are different.. which is kind of the point of it all. You choose which is best for you, sensor size being part of that decision.

Thanks Jarred, if I upgrade my S-W to Dragon-X now, can I upgrade to a Gemini sensor later on? Or will there be a Gemini sensor coming in the future matching the sensor size of Dragon 5K?

 

[Brent Carter]

Any chance there will be the original 6k version coming? Also with dragon is there ability in the future to do dual native iso with it as an iteration?

No and no. The dual ISO is inherent to the pixel design (as of now, only GEMINI), this is still the original DRAGON sensor pixel design.

So yeah.. this one week window I am offering to Raven is 100% personal for me. Ask Brent, I had to fight for it. Its not a business ploy to sell cameras. It's me being frustrated that we have a group of customers that are quite purely, stuck.

^^^ Truth ^^^

LOVE that the Dragon is in the Unified body! Jarred - It would be extra awesome if 6k Dragon DSMC2 owners - carbon/magnesium could also get the UNIFIED BODY !!!

There are paths for those folks to get into DSMC2, sure (https://www.red.com/upgrade-eligibility) albeit with different sensor options.

If you are saying going into DSMC2 DRAGON-X from those cameras, you do drop down from 6K to 5K. There is no current iteration of DSMC2 brain with 6K DRAGON, only 5K DRAGON-X.

Any love left for us Epic Mysterium peeps?

Sorry, Joe, for pre-DSMC2 cameras, that ship has sailed.

 

[Brent Carter]

Thanks Jarred, if I upgrade my S-W to Dragon-X now, can I upgrade to a Gemini sensor later on? Or will there be a Gemini sensor coming in the future matching the sensor size of Dragon 5K?

Cannot comment on the second part. As to the first part, yes, there is a path from GEMINI to DRAGON-X - check here.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I do enjoy Dragons...

 

[Karel Šimůnek]

Jarred, Brent, RED team, thank you for this upgrade path. Finally no resolution changes for more fps. 5K RAW from 1 fps to 120 fps. I don't need more. Thank you

 

[Sergio Perez]

This isn't marketing. You don't market things that don't make you money. And to be clear, there is no " official " upgrade path. It's a one week thing that is open to a very limited number of people. I am literally going against my own rule because I have met a few Raven owners over the last year that purchased the camera with absolutely no upgrade expectations but I have watched many of them shoot incredible things.. better things than they should be shooting just starting out, and I watch some of them get to that point when they run up against the wall being limited by their tool..mostly by the lens mount and format size.

Raven was supposed to be a drone camera and/or the lightest RED for run and gun, and it became much more to many people. So they actually legitimately needed more camera but also being in a financial situation, as most Raven owners are, that they could never afford the massive jump for some people to get into a Gemini or Helium or Monstro. And they can't go backward with anything else in that price point, even from another company, so they get stuck in this spot, even if it is more mental than reality, and that frustrates the shit out of me.

So yeah.. this one week window I am offering to Raven is 100% personal for me. Ask Brent, I had to fight for it. Its not a business ploy to sell cameras. It's me being frustrated that we have a group of customers that are quite purely, stuck.

And I am shocked how good some of the stuff is that people are shooting with Raven as their first camera. I know it sounds lame but it makes me feel like a proud father and sometimes parents do stupid things to reward their kids that probably they shouldn't do and sometimes that pisses off every other parent around them.

Being a creative is hard and most people that bought a Raven bought it not because they want to make a business out of it like a lot of people here, but they bought it because they have have a dying need to create something. Raven owners , for the most part, are just enterting this very hard business. Well it's not just a hard business.. it's frankly a totally fucked-up-shit-show of a business. With a lot of "no's" that are going to come up in front of them and I feel like if I can give something a little back to them then I feel I need to. I honestly don't mean to piss you or anyone else off when I do stupid shit like this... I promise you it comes from a good place.

Here's why I stick to Red even beyond the greatness of its cameras.

Filmmaking tools done with filmmakers in mind- from any background. Powerful tools were everyone can punch above their weight. I own a Monstro, but I've worked with Scarlet W's and Ravens and they cut well with all other Red cameras. There's real care in giving the best possible image at the different price points. This can't be said of many other manufacturers. Well done Jarred and Red Team. This is the RED difference.