DSMC2 Unified Dragon-X

[Julen De La Serna]

I'm very confused. As a Scarlet-W user, what adds this camera to the lineup? My Scarlet-W has a 5K Sensor, and support IPP2 in post, not in camera. I know that this new camera offers IPP2 in camera and more recording speed, because the processor is faster. But in terms of image quality, the Dragon of my Scarlet-W and the dragon inside this Dragon-X is the same?

 

[Spencer Weaver]

I'm very confused. As a Scarlet-W user, what adds this camera to the lineup? My Scarlet-W has a 5K Sensor, and support IPP2 in post, not in camera. I know that this new camera offers IPP2 in camera and more recording speed, because the processor is faster. But in terms of image quality, the Dragon of my Scarlet-W and the dragon inside this Dragon-X is the same?

Yes. It seems that basically the end game is that the Dragon-X takes the place of the Scarlet-W in the DSMC2 line up. And although there is many ways in which this is a lateral move... there are a few areas that the Dragon-X departs from the Scarlet-W. i.e. frame rates, processing speeed, compression, built in IPP2 support, future upgrade options, etc.

Lower compression ratios do mean the ability to achieve better image quality with this camera. However, it's still the same awesome Dragon sensor flavor you already have in the Scarlet-W

 

[Bérenger Brillante]

I'm very confused. As a Scarlet-W user, what adds this camera to the lineup? My Scarlet-W has a 5K Sensor, and support IPP2 in post, not in camera. I know that this new camera offers IPP2 in camera and more recording speed, because the processor is faster. But in terms of image quality, the Dragon of my Scarlet-W and the dragon inside this Dragon-X is the same?

From Scarlet-W :
IPP2, compression is better, frame rates are better, Better Proxies, LUT size from 17 to 33

From Raven :
IPP2, compression is better, frame rates are better, interchangeable mount, interchangeable OLPF, higher resolution, actual Proxies, LUT from none to 33.

That's something.
On the image quality, the IPP2 can improve your live feed. The actual recorded picture will be the same though, but for clients, having a better live picture is quite fine already.

The camera is basically becoming a Carbon Fiber Weapon in 5k. for 5k. As soon as I have the money, I'll upgrade.

 

[Spencer Weaver]

for $3k I wouldn't have even given it a thought... I would just do it. It makes so much sense.
for $4k I would have to think a little bit, but it's too hard not to pull the trigger.
for $5k there is just too many question marks. And it's harder to justify even though all the pros of the upgrade are really nice!


All that said, we can't expect for them to just give us a new camera and all new hardware for free! So, the $5k is not really unreasonable. But, like others have said, it's not enough incentive to cause a lot of people to pull the trigger without pause.

 

[Julen De La Serna]

I totally agree, for $3K it would have been a no brainer update, even $4K, but I think you can invest $5K in other important things like lenses or lighting, instead of adding a little higher frame rates and better processors. All the actual DSMC2 accessories are completely supported by the S-W.

 

[Brent G Miller Jr]

for $3k I wouldn't have even given it a thought... I would just do it. It makes so much sense.
for $4k I would have to think a little bit, but it's too hard not to pull the trigger.
for $5k there is just too many question marks. And it's harder to justify even though all the pros of the upgrade are really nice!


All that said, we can't expect for them to just give us a new camera and all new hardware for free! So, the $5k is not really unreasonable. But, like others have said, it's not enough incentive to cause a lot of people to pull the trigger without pause.

+1 all of the way. For $3K I would trade in my 2 Scarlet-W brains without even thinking twice. Especially since I'm currently in the middle of a couple of production already dedicated to the Dragon sensor.

 

[Spencer Weaver]

I totally agree, for $3K it would have been a no brainer update, even $4K, but I think you can invest $5K in other important things like lenses or lighting, instead of adding a little higher frame rates and better processors. All the actual DSMC2 accessories are completely supported by the S-W.

Exactly. Now, if you were buying new today and didn't own anything... then yeah, maybe I would spend just a tad more and get the Dragon-X.

Or if there was some type of other incentive like upgrade and get a credit towards a 480 minimag so that you can take advanage of that faster read/write speed and achieve lower compression....

I don't know... like I said... too much to think about and weigh. It's not an easy automatic decision. And part of it is just that the Scarlet-W has always been a bit of a unicorn! It's just a great sweet spot and a great camera.

 

[Zachary Patino]

Scarlet-W > Dragon-X = $4,950
Dragon-X > Gemini= $4,950

Total cost from Scarlet-W to Gemini is $9,900.

Scarlet-W > Gemini = $12,500

...?

The "budget" Gemini upgrade?

 

[Mathias Erichsen]

Total cost from Scarlet-W to Gemini is $9,900.

Great! This is probably the rout I’ll want to go

 

[jordan levy]

Scarlet-W > Dragon-X = $4,950
Dragon-X > Gemini= $4,950

Total cost from Scarlet-W to Gemini is $9,900.

Scarlet-W > Gemini = $12,500

...?

The "budget" Gemini upgrade?[/QUOTE

but there is only a $7k difference btwn the price of the brains.

 

[David Franjic]

Perhaps a good way of looking at this upgrade path is as a stepping stone to eventually owning REDs Gemini sensor down the track. Currently you can upgrade directly from a Scarlet-W to the Gemini for $12.5K. Alternatively, after today's announcement, you can Upgrade from the Scarlet-W to the DSMC Dragon-X for $5K and then further upgrade to the Gemini for another $5K when you are ready/able to do so. That's a saving of $2.5K for doing the upgrade in 2 stages while also buying you some time before needing to shell out for the Gemini upgrade. Of course, the downside to this is again being forced (or at least firmly nudged) to pay to stay within a system. I don't think most of us expected having to upgrade to what is essentially a mkii version of the original dsmc2 system.

 

[Zachary Patino]

Scarlet-W > Dragon-X = $4,950
Dragon-X > Gemini= $4,950

Total cost from Scarlet-W to Gemini is $9,900.

Scarlet-W > Gemini = $12,500

...?

The "budget" Gemini upgrade?[/QUOTE

but there is only a $7k difference btwn the price of the brains.

But I already have the Scarlet-W and doing the upgrade is $9,600 cheaper than buying a whole new brain. (No need for a second brain)

 

[Samir Patel]

Interesting upgrade but.... Dragon 6K looks to be dead now... that's unfortunate.
Wish there was a worth it side step from MG.
6K to 5K doesn't make sense whether it is to Gemini or not.

Hoping this Dragon-X moniker is telling of a Dragon-"other letter" moniker to cover those 6K-MG peeps like me. Or better like I requested before would be nice for a 36x24 6K cut sensor. That would be a great sidestep.

Also kinda weird that the title of the RED.com page mentions 6K still when there is no 6K RED camera (aside from dropping to 6K mode from 8K camera) to be sold on the website. Just my 2 cents.

6K with Gemini tech now... 36.86mm x 19.44mm would hold me over.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Brent said not days, not weeks, probably months and then they're gonna discontinue the old "dsmc2" line with no ipp2 support. You can even buy the Raven Sigma Kit with the dragon-x, and I think they're going more premium, the "original" raven price was crazy low.

The only strange thing it's that they didn't go 6k with the dragon. It was S35, almost identical to gemini sensor size, maybe it was too good to be their entry level dsmc2 ipp2 camera eheh

I'm only pointing at being able to actually see an end date. It's a bit frustrating that there seem to be this invisible end, so planning towards an upgrade gets a bit complicated when we don't know any timeframe.

 

[Brent Carter]

Also kinda weird that the title of the RED.com page mentions 6K still when there is no 6K RED camera (aside from dropping to 6K mode from 8K camera) to be sold on the website. Just my 2 cents.

On our punchlist to update, thank you.

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

The only strange thing it's that they didn't go 6k with the dragon. It was S35

5K is S35, that's why they choose 5K res for the Scarlet-W and now for the X brain.

6K is 20% bigger than S35, which is actually a lot more pixels for downsampling/cropping/stabilizing and quite thinner DOF (both good or bad points depending on the project of course...mostly good tho he he) at the same FOV.

 

[emil_h]

Brent said not days, not weeks, probably months and then they're gonna discontinue the old "dsmc2" line with no ipp2 support. You can even buy the Raven Sigma Kit with the dragon-x, and I think they're going more premium, the "original" raven price was crazy low.

The only strange thing it's that they didn't go 6k with the dragon. It was S35, almost identical to gemini sensor size, maybe it was too good to be their entry level dsmc2 ipp2 camera eheh

Where did he say that RED is going to discontinue IPP2 support on old DSMC2 camera? Sounds like BS

 

[Phil Holland]

The power is out where I live. So swung by to grab some accessories at the RED Store and to my surprise:

Some thoughts after reading a few comments. RED's put a lot of emphasis in unifying the current lineup. This is the Dragon 5K option that now supports IPP2 internally.

The Scarlet-W folks will have the hardest time mulling over the upgrade, but for new cameras sold and people looking to upgrade into the current general workflow ecosystem it makes sense.

Jarred has been teasing an upgrade path for Raven for a small window which sounds like January. Remember that Raven had no upgrade path and likely won't after this brief window. For any Raven owner though, I would advise to look at this moment because upgrading keeps you in the ecosystem which allows you to upgrade to newer bodies at a discount compared than purchasing a new one.

So to this, it's really viva la IPP2 and the current body mentality.

It is very interesting that boards now exist to make Dragon work with IPP2.

As for Dragon 6K, and bare in mind I am a lover of Dragon, my biggest gripe, which has been sorted on the 8K cameras is the resolution, aspect ratio, and format of 6K FF. It was a smidge more widescreen than the DCI 1.9:1 aspect ratio. Not a biggy for many, but for FF full format, it always was a bit odd. Gemini is a special case as the full height of the sensor is really optimized anamorphic filming.

I do want RED to stick to DCI aspect ratio sensors for the most part as generally the vast majority of the world creates wide screen imagery in various aspect ratios using rectilinear lenses.

That all said, nice see Dragon back into the mix. There's a lot of options from RED with their lineup, which is very different than a couple manufacturers. I'm super damn happy they represent different format sizes so well. It's very much still my strong opinion RED has done the best at creating a digital film alternative.

 

[kevinjoelson]

I've always been a huge fan of the Dragon. It's no surprise to see a reissue of this proven sensor with IPP2 capabilities. IPP2, plus the ability to record lower compression is worth the upgrade for S-W and Raven owners on the fence. Trust me on that. I wish I could get lower compression specs on my Monstro for VFX, high detail and low light work. That said, I'm totally surprised to see a Dragon reissue and not an S35 version of the Monstro. I think a lot of us were expecting that as the next move. Cheers to the future!

 

[William Ciani]

No offense to raven owners but If the raven gets an upgrade path to this after every single red sales rep I spoke with used the “there will never be any upgrade path with that model” as a selling point to justify the (at the time) massive price difference to the other cameras, I think I will be done with this company and it’s bs marketing ploys.

Still waiting to see when the massively overpriced accessories get that “retooling” price cut.