Dragon...

[mark foster]

ok--I hate to beat a dead horse--but I feel like with all the back and forth and guessing there has been no definitive answer to the red one saga, was the red one to epic the last physical upgrade for the red one? I love the red and have just bought one last year and was waiting for today to see if i should go MX or not--Im hoping to know officially that there will not be any more upgrades to the red one camera. Then i will go MX or buy a scarlet.
And if so may I ask why not--It seams that the sensor would fit in a red one--is it too costly?--I would pay a pretty penny for it--as i love the format and size for Red one. so can we just to be clear with serious answer, Its still a great camera and years ahead of others, I just dont want hold onto to these pipe dreams anymore.

thank you

mark

ok--I understand that it won't be the Dragon--But JIm did say everyone selling their red ones would be sorry, is there another possibility in the monster family or something--I just want to know from the mouth of RED that it will or will not be physically upgraded in anyway--what was the reason we'd be sorry for selling--I'd love to hear from someone who works for RED.

Pleasssssse..

 

[Robert Horwell]

There is no path for Dragon to the RED ONE. That upgrade path was RED ONE to EPIC.

Jim

Did you read this?

 

[Mike Halper]

So we need an image circle of 33.9mm (basically 34mm) to cover in 6K with no vignetting, right? Which means, Zeiss Ultra Prime 16mm (33mm according to Matthew Duclos http://web.me.com/ducloslenses/DataRef/ImgCir.html) won't cover, right?

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

So we need an image circle of 33.9mm (basically 34mm) to cover in 6K with no vignetting, right? Which means, Zeiss Ultra Prime 16mm (33mm according to Matthew Duclos http://web.me.com/ducloslenses/DataRef/ImgCir.html) won't cover, right?

I believe that is based on the current pixel size of the Mysterium-X sensor, in order to fit a 6k sensor in an Epic (or Scarlet) I would imagine the pixel size is now smaller, hence the same lenses that cover today will also cover in the future - of course we can´t know this untill we know the physical size of the sensor.

 

[Alan Peterson]

I think they announced it was 30x15.8mm earlier in the thread.

When do we get to see sample footage from Dragon? I can't wait to see what 15+ stops of DR looks like.

 

[Rob Anderson]

ok--I understand that it won't be the Dragon--But JIm did say everyone selling their red ones would be sorry, is there another possibility in the monster family or something--I just want to know from the mouth of RED that it will or will not be physically upgraded in anyway--what was the reason we'd be sorry for selling--I'd love to hear from someone who works for RED.

Pleasssssse..

I'd love to know this too. That quote from Jim has been hanging over things for us too. We bought an Epic (love it), but we're still trying to find a good use for our One and have held off on the MX upgrade until we see where things settle.

 

[L. Langer]

I'd love to know this too. That quote from Jim has been hanging over things for us too. We bought an Epic (love it), but we're still trying to find a good use for our One and have held off on the MX upgrade until we see where things settle.

Not getting in on the offered trade-up = You will be sorry that you sold your RED ONE because you are not eligible to get in on the fun!

 

[Mike Halper]

I believe that is based on the current pixel size of the Mysterium-X sensor, in order to fit a 6k sensor in an Epic (or Scarlet) I would imagine the pixel size is now smaller, hence the same lenses that cover today will also cover in the future - of course we can´t know this untill we know the physical size of the sensor.

I think they announced it was 30x15.8mm earlier in the thread.

When do we get to see sample footage from Dragon? I can't wait to see what 15+ stops of DR looks like.

Exactly. I used the Pythagorean theorem to get the 33.9 diagonal of the sensor. (30 x 30) + (15.8 x 15.8) = (33.9 x 33.9). So really we'd need 34mm image circle to really cover that. Is this correct or does the sensor dimensions provided include some unused portion?

 

[Nick Morrison]

I believe that is based on the current pixel size of the Mysterium-X sensor, in order to fit a 6k sensor in an Epic (or Scarlet) I would imagine the pixel size is now smaller, hence the same lenses that cover today will also cover in the future - of course we can´t know this untill we know the physical size of the sensor.

Isn't the new Dragon sensor a teeny-weeny bit larger than the MX sensor? So the FOV may change slightly, and some extreme wides may begin to vignette, where they didn't before, no?

 

[Rob Anderson]

Not getting in on the offered trade-up = You will be sorry that you sold your RED ONE because you are not eligible to get in on the fun!

I bought my One from someone else on RU that had executed the staged trade up already, but never improved the sensor to the MX. Transaction happened about 4 months ago. They got an awesome deal with the trade up for sure and generally speaking, I got a good one on the buy too. But I've held off buying the MX upgrade just in case there was Dragon or Monstro news coming.

That's it really. Just wondering if MX marks the EOL for the One and if I'm good to go-ahead and finally do that. Or if, per Jim's earlier comments, there is something else coming to One holders.

Beyond that, loving the Epic and can't wait to drop the Dragon into that.

 

[Scott Crawley]

ok--I understand that it won't be the Dragon--But JIm did say everyone selling their red ones would be sorry, is there another possibility in the monster family or something--I just want to know from the mouth of RED that it will or will not be physically upgraded in anyway--what was the reason we'd be sorry for selling--I'd love to hear from someone who works for RED.

Pleasssssse..

When he said that, I believe what he wasn't saying is that a physical trade in might be necessary. The context of those remarks (If I remember correctly) was one of the loyalty program and Stages 1-4. He was not dangling another upgrade carrot. The option to move to the Epic platform WAS the carrot. By making it possible for most R1 owners to make a free lateral move to Epic, Jim was keeping his Obsolescence Obsolete promise. Were it not for that promise, I doubt there would ever have been such a generous offering.

The writing was on the wall. The Red form factor was drastically changing, and if you wanted to stay on board and continue to upgrade your camera you needed to migrate to the modular Epic platform.

R1 is still good, and like an old Bolex it will remain good so long as it functions, but it is what it is and that is all that it is. This is the end of the road.

Rob, MX with confidence.

Happy Shooting

 

[Elsie N]

When he said that, I believe what he wasn't saying is that a physical trade in might be necessary. The context of those remarks (If I remember correctly) was one of the loyalty program and Stages 1-4. He was not dangling another upgrade carrot. The option to move to the Epic platform WAS the carrot. By making it possible for most R1 owners to make a free lateral move to Epic, Jim was keeping his Obsolescence Obsolete promise. Were it not for that promise, I doubt there would ever have been such a generous offering.

The writing was on the wall. The Red form factor was drastically changing, and if you wanted to stay on board and continue to upgrade your camera you needed to migrate to the modular Epic platform.

R1 is still good, and like an old Bolex it will remain good so long as it functions, but it is what it is and that is all that it is. This is the end of the road.

Happy shooting

I remember those remarks as well and my initial thinking was that he was saying the R-1 is a good camera and you won't be disappointed by owning it. But since then, there have been so many posts thinking it meant something else that I grew to doubt my own interpretation.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Scott, first i think it was Jarred that said all of this....something like we will be sorry if we sell our R1's.....but it was an open invitation to think there may be an upgrade coming....that was all i could read from that statement...why else would i be sorry then? Or maybe it meant that those that did sell there R1's would not get the Epic X upgrade or revoked? those are the only two meanings i could have discerned from it...but i don't think it was a threat as much a reason to hold on and that RED may have something cool to offer for R1 owners.....since at the time of that statement the upgrades i believe were already done and written....What else can that statement have meant? OR.....maybe RED thought they could pull off an upgrade, but then it just did not work out and now that line of thought and statement is long gone....??

Regardless....it does beg the question of WHAT was meant by the initial statement AND are we in for a real surprise--those of us original R1 owners that still have our cameras?? i upgraded both mine to MX sensors and sure would like to know if there is anything else in store OR should i now consider selling both off now that i have a PILE of Red Epics in my closet and see no future for me to now keep my two R1's......Am i going to miss anything now? One thing i KNOW i'll miss is....if i don't sell my R1's now, they'll just depreciate like everything electronic.....SO....PLEASE RELEASE ME, LET ME GO or tell me something that keeps me excited to keep my R1....as much as i love it...It is a tool and nothing more to me.....but a LOvELY tool indeed. one that will no longer make me $$. My Epics will though....

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Exactly. I used the Pythagorean theorem to get the 33.9 diagonal of the sensor. (30 x 30) + (15.8 x 15.8) = (33.9 x 33.9). So really we'd need 34mm image circle to really cover that. Is this correct or does the sensor dimensions provided include some unused portion?

Sorry, for once I didn't read the entire thread, I just assumed based on how little space it is in there already that they had run out of space..
I must learn to read all the posts, my bad.

 

[Scott Crawley]

This is all hindsight so yes, it is an amalgam of comments by both Jim and Jarred. I could be wrong but when Jarred said You'll be sorry if you sell your R1, that the Stage 4 shoe had not yet been dropped. It was an early response to all of the lease deals that were going down. It was a warning that if you were not planning to actually keep your R1 and BUY the Epic that you would have to physically have possession of your R1 in order to take advantage of some of the upgrade options. Again, this is hindsight, so it is subject to my own memory and interpretation.

When those things were said their meanings were not as clear as I think they are now. Now that the Stages have been completed.

Jim loves the R1 and he obviously has strong feelings for those who believed in him when others did not. Hell, this is Jim, anything could happen... But expect nothing. He has given plenty, and to expect anything else is nuts. I think I hear irritation in his tone each time he has to answer the Dragon in R1 questions. Put yourself in his shoes. Would you not feel like folks were being ungrateful with their ever hopeful requests for something more?

Scott, first i think it was Jarred that said all of this....something like we will be sorry if we sell our R1's.....but it was an open invitation to think there may be an upgrade coming....that was all i could read from that statement...why else would i be sorry then? Or maybe it meant that those that did sell there R1's would not get the Epic X upgrade or revoked? those are the only two meanings i could have discerned from it...but i don't think it was a threat as much a reason to hold on and that RED may have something cool to offer for R1 owners.....since at the time of that statement the upgrades i believe were already done and written....What else can that statement have meant? OR.....maybe RED thought they could pull off an upgrade, but then it just did not work out and now that line of thought and statement is long gone....??

 

[Rob Anderson]

He has given plenty, and to expect anything else is nuts. I think I hear irritation in his tone each time he has to answer the Dragon in R1 questions. Put yourself in his shoes. Would you not feel like folks were being ungrateful with their ever hopeful requests for something more?

No one, myself included, expects anything extra. All we want is to know if there will be so we can make a prudent decision. Not sure why anytime anyone asks about their R1 they get pounced on like this.

 

[Mark Pugh]

Scott's comment is accurate.
Jarred's comment remained enigmatic, but...
Many, many people chose to believe it meant rewards for not upgrading to Epic. It didn't.
Jim has stated clearly, for years, that the path to The future was to upgrade was to Epic-X.
Many people got this, and it was stated again by Jim in the last 24 hours.
Time to get over it.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I'm not pouncing. Please don't feel that way. I may be taking a more emphatic tone just to get people to listen because nobody seems to, but it is not directed solely at you. You are not alone in this. I think people need to finally accept that R1 development is over. Red has pledged support in the form of repairs, software and firmware, but no new R1 hardware is likely forthcoming.

Jim could probably use a break. He and Jarred have answered the question "Will there be a Dragon upgrade for R1?" many, many times.

No one, myself included, expects anything extra. All we want is to know if there will be so we can make a prudent decision. Not sure why anytime anyone asks about their R1 they get pounced on like this.

 

[Tom Lowe]

This is such a great announcement. You guys are doing amazing things.

Will the sensor be the same size and aspect ratio? How does Dragon's ISO performance rank against MX? If I previously felt comfortable going up to 1600 ISO in low light conditions on MX, what ISO will I feel comfortable with on Dragon?

 

[Kevin Marshall]

Hey Tom - Jim gave the size, at least, last night:

Sensor size is 30x15.8mm. Pixel size is 5 micron.

Jim

There's some other posts about there being improvements in both highlights and lowlights...gotta dig a little more...

EDIT: found stuff. When Asked about lowlight:

Much better than M-X.

Jim

And about ISO range:

Incredibly low and high.

Jim

Cryptic (not out of the ordinary), but somewhat informative.