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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON vs HELIUM !!!

I love the images from my Helium, and definitely prefer it over my Magnesium Dragon before the upgrade to it.

At first I didn’t like Helium over Dragon-but IPP2 sure changed that!
To me the DR is bit better than Dragon-especially the added shadow detail, noise performance/low light is better, I don’t have much of an issue with the crop for higher frame rates since I rarely go above 60fps (which is why I went with Weapon over Epic-W).

Helium sure is a solid step above Dragon!
 
Patrick Tresch said:
Hello Björn,

I'm not quite sure about the DR from Heilum vs Dragon. My observation are that Dragon with LLO sees better than Helium with the same noise / texture (subjective observation of course). And the clipping point with LLO is in favor of the Dragon in the Weapon body. Now we are talking in the 1/2 stop subjective realm. The big plus of the Helium is the resolution gain without loosing a lot more of DR than we could have thought.
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I actually had just the opposite experience. I've noticed a significant step up in seeing into the shadows as well as a finer/smaller noise that gives a perceived cleaner blacks. The highlight detail is definitely a bit better in my experience on Dragon, but lowlight, for sure in my experience is going to have to go to Helium.
 
Akin A said:
How much cleaner is Helium than Dragon after RED reset the ISO calibration back one stop?
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Nothing changed, really. All that changed is the number tied to ISO. Tomorrow, RED could put out an update that replaces all the numbers with shapes. Again, nothing would actually change, just the symbol associated with the ISO level.

800 new = 1600 legacy.

If you set a Dragon camera and a Helium camera to the exact same settings, you'd still have to boost Dragon 1 stop or set it to 1600 to match the same brightness as Helium at 800. So nothing got "set back."

Side note, I am really loving Helium's perfect 4:1 pixel oversampling for 4K delivery - the 8K source material means every 2x2 block of pixels averages out to 1 pixel, something you don't quite get with 6K source material.
 
Aaron Lochert said:
Side note, I am really loving Helium's perfect 4:1 pixel oversampling for 4K delivery - the 8K source material means every 2x2 block of pixels averages out to 1 pixel, something you don't quite get with 6K source material.
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Hello,

I don't think debayering works like that. One pixel is not one pixel but a value tu be used to form a pixel in a debayered world.

Pat
 
Ok, I was perhaps biased on the first Helium tests I've seen. Now I'm waiting for a Monstro S35mm announcement for Christmas! ;-)
 
I’d like to see a 5-6K Monstro for the next iteration of Scarlet. That would be great.

If not, my Scarlet W is A OK for awhile longer.
 
Thai Christen said:
Pat, did you shoot both Dragon and Helium in the same scenario and lighting condition?
R3d files of both shots Helium and Dragon so everyone can take a look? I am curious because I lean towards Björn's statement
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I have, though not at the same time. It's not a night and day difference, but straight out of the camera, Helium's colors are more pleasing, and there's noticeably less noise in the shadows. 8K is overkill for most of my work, but it's a LOT easier on the data wrangling side than 4K ProRes 444, since Helium at 12:1 compression provides such a beautiful image for a well lit and shot scene.
 
I think people are being a bit bias because they own the camera. I own both the Epic Dragon and Weapon Helium. I honestly don't prefer one over the other but the Weapon Helium is not worth its price. I would have loved to upgrade to the Monstro but the extra $30K isn't going to help my bank account nor will it pay its self off as quick as the Dragon or Weapon could have done. I agree with one of the first replies. RED couldn't make good/fast enough Dragon sensors so they made Helium. It definitly doesn't have as much DR in the highlights, anyway who says different hasn't even looked at charts. It is cleaner in the blacks and it's a stop brighter at the same ISO. You must think about what you're shooting. Studio work, either is suitable. Hollywood, again either is works. Doc work, the Helium. Controlled bright situations, I'd say Dragon. Also I think the Helium still needs color work. It's greener than Dragon Color for sure.
 
I would also like to add that the Epic-W may be worth its price. I just think the Weapon really should have been a Monstro at $50K, not $80K. And if I bought the Epic-W instead of the Weapon I would have been more satisfied.
 
David J. Buchanan said:
It is cleaner in the blacks and it's a stop brighter at the same ISO. You must think about what you're shooting. Studio work, either is suitable. Hollywood, again either is works. Doc work, the Helium. Controlled bright situations, I'd say Dragon. Also I think the Helium still needs color work. It's greener than Dragon Color for sure.
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This has already been discussed many times in other threads.
To put it in a very very simple way, Dragon you expose more to the right. And with Helium more to the left.
Helium green tint (also this is known), just dial tint in camera around -5 to -10 depending on scene and lighting, and you are fine.

And I agree, EpicW is currently the best Red high end camera in terms of price/value. I paid it off within one year. With Weapon and Monstro, it would take longer.
 
David J. Buchanan said:
I would also like to add that the Epic-W may be worth its price. I just think the Weapon really should have been a Monstro at $50K, not $80K. And if I bought the Epic-W instead of the Weapon I would have been more satisfied.
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Agree!
 
David J. Buchanan said:
I would also like to add that the Epic-W may be worth its price. I just think the Weapon really should have been a Monstro at $50K, not $80K. And if I bought the Epic-W instead of the Weapon I would have been more satisfied.
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Agree x2!

I can’t justify forking an extra $30k to upgrade my Weapon to Monstro, that’s almost the price as the Sony Venice! And the differences between the Weapon Helium and Epic W is really worth $20k??? For 8k60p, carbon fiber exterior, an extra 25 MB/s?

I totally understand the Stormtroopers getting a great deal to Monstro, but all the other Weapon owners forking up 3x’s that upgrade cost just isn’t fair.

I prefer my Helium over Dragon: I deal more with controlled lighting scenerios, love how clean the blacks are, and boy once you shoot 8k it sure is tough to go back to 6k. Guess I’m stuck with Helium for a while, and will continue to support RED!
 
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Chris Kennedy said:
Agree x2!

I can’t justify forking an extra $30k to upgrade my Weapon to Monstro, that’s almost the price as the Sony Venice! And the differences between the Weapon Helium and Epic W is really worth $20k??? For 8k60p, carbon fiber exterior, an extra 25 MB/s?

I totally understand the Stormtroopers getting a great deal to Monstro, but all the other Weapon owners forking up 3x’s that upgrade cost just isn’t fair.

I prefer my Helium over Dragon: I deal more with controlled lighting scenerios, love how clean the blacks are, and boy once you shoot 8k it sure is tough to go back to 6k. Guess I’m stuck with Helium for a while, and will continue to support RED!
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They done it every time. Buy the premium and you get the benefits. The option to buy VV when weapon was announced was there. We where quite a few that jumped on that and yes, got it like 2.5 year later but for quite a slim cost.

I would not trade my Monstro for two sony Vegas or any other camera. And not not for two heliums either. The difference is that amazing.
 
Björn Benckert said:
They done it every time. Buy the premium and you get the benefits. The option to buy VV when weapon was announced was there. We where quite a few that jumped on that and yes, got it like 2.5 year later but for quite a slim cost.

I would not trade my Monstro for two sony Vegas or any other camera. And not not for two heliums either. The difference is that amazing.
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“Every time”??? Maybe in regards to exclusivity/placement in the next upgrade. But to dish out double the cost for said update? Yes I’d take my Helium and even Dragon over the Venice-just brought it up solely on price for a different VV system
 
Jan Schuster said:
5k Monstro for Scarlet would be a dream come true
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Agreed! I would imagine if a 5k cut of the Monster sensor was made an upgrade program for Scarlet-W might be possible?
 
Hey Everyone

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for all your responses.

So everyone agrees that DSMC2 Is cleaner in low light then DSMC1 however is the noise better when comparing the same resolutions?

Eg 5k to 5k

Or do you need shoot higher resolutions to see a noise improvement?

Warmest wishes

Adrian
 
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