Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic UNDERWATER HOUSINGs, Comprenhensive Test & Review

Will Keir

Will Keir

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
5,323
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
California
UNDERWATER HOUSING Comprehensive Test & Review

Gentlemen, maybe I'm just late to the party but there is not enough information about housings for shooting the Epic underwater. I've been wanting to get the Epic Underwater Housings together for a comprehensive test for quite sometime and have been in discussions with fellow RU and builders for a while. There are several great options and more coming. Perhaps the time has come for a few of us to lead the way, collaborate, "unite the clans" (builders & manufactures) and bring all the housings together for one grand shootout?


Epic Underwater Housing Options:

Gates "Deep Epic" - Contact John J. Ellerbrock, California.
Pawel Achtel's "Deep-X" - Contact Pawel Achtel, Austrillia.
Amphibico "Rouge" - Contact Mauricio Handler, Maine.
Nauticam - Contact ____
HydroFlex "Epic Deep Water" - Contact Matt Brown (RENTAL Only option)
Aquavideo "Epic Underwater Housing" - Contact Michael Hastings, Florida.
Subspace - Contact Pascal Courtin, Switzerland.
Equinox - Contact ____
Taro Pascaul's Surf Housing - Contact Taro Pascaul, Hawaii.
SPL - Contact ____
Del Mar - Contact ____

This is not an official test for a publication, just a collaboration of friends and colleges looking to gain experience we can all benefit from. Results to be posted on RU.

Highlighted features broken down into two parts:

OPTICS

- Lens Options / Focal Options / Macro Options
- Dome Ports V.S. Flat Ports V.S. Underwater Lenses.
- Dome/Lens Pairing Options for each housing.
- Rectilinear / Fisheye
- Distortions, CA, Magnifying Effect, Curvature of Field, Rainbow Fringing, Flaring.
- Filter Options. NDs, Colored Filters.
- Results of SFR Charts ( MTF, LP/MM, other results from Imatest software)


BUILD QUALITY & FEATURES

- Access to camera functions, ergonomics, ease of use, intuitiveness.
- Monitoring Options.
- Balance, Buoyancy & Trim.
- Drag and Maneuverability in the water.
- Portability & Storage out of the water. Ease of assembly/disassembly.
- Materials: AL, PVC, Steel. Pros & Cons.
- Depth Rating
- Ability to operate in shallow environments.
- Battery Options & Length of time spent underwater.

After the numbers and reviews come it, we'll post a complete write up on REDUSER.NET for all to use and share. Expect a comprehensive video, R3D stills from the pool, the numbers on each lens paired with housings, MTF, Line Pair Per Millimeter from Imatest software and some BTS.

My previous test work can be seen here: SALT III: High Speed Lens Shootout
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...O-quot-Results
 
Last edited:
Will,

I'm in the process of testing several Epic housings for UnderwaterCinema.com, which I will do in my backyard here in the Florida Keys. Gotta say though, I think you should have posted this on the Underwater Bubble Blowers thread if you really want all the input you can get. At any rate, I won't have the time to test all housings at once but my reviews will start appearing one by one soon. Maybe that will be of of some help or not if you're in a hurry. Good luck.
 
Rudi,

We should figure out a way to work together on this. Would be great to have you if we make it out to Hawaii.
 
Will Keir said:
UNDERWATER HOUSING Comprehensive Test & Review

Hi guys. I've been wanting to get the Epic Underwater Housings together for a comprehensive test for quite sometime and have been in discussions with fellow RU and builders for a while. There are several great options and more coming.

Epic Underwater Housing Options:

Gates
Deep-X
Amphibico
Aquavideo
Nauticam
Subspace
Equinox

I'd like to get experienced divers, shooters and builders together in Kona Hawaii, late March 2013 to put these systems through their paces. This is not an official test for a publication, just a collaboration of friends and colleges looking to gain experience we can all benefit from. Results to be posted on RU.

My previous test work can be seen here: SALT III: High Speed Lens Shootout
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...O-quot-Results
Click to expand...
Hey Will with respect stop procrastinating about this housing and just go for it. There is more than enough information on this blog what are you waiting for?
 
Will,

I have offered such test to be performed independently by Amarican Cinematographer, which they often do. Unfortunately, only Mike Hastings (Aquavideo) expressed interest in participating in such test.

The main reason I got involved in manufacturing and offering housings for Red Epic is because no other housing from other manufacturers offered anything close to 4k quality, distortion-free images, ability to shoot at wide apertures, reliability or the size and weight that I was after.

Of course, the lack of objective measurable or comparable data and images from all manufacturers except us speaks volumes, but there is nothing like a comparison.

I'm always interested in participating in a test as this is exactly what we do to market our products: put them on the scales, measure them up and quantify the optical performance. Love it :)
 
Pawel knows his shit and makes really a really cool housing. I saw the pictures on my broadcast monitor last week and the pics were amazing!
 
Then we can count on a DeepX being involved? And yourself as well?

What does the Epic sensor currently resolve? About 70 lP/mm?

Have you put the nikonos on the projector? Because the Nikonos 14mm using the water as part of it's optical system (can't shoot above water), how is this done? Underwater?
Pawel Achtel said:
Will,

I have offered such test to be performed independently by Amarican Cinematographer, which they often do. Unfortunately, only Mike Hastings (Aquavideo) expressed interest in participating in such test.

The main reason I got involved in offering housings for Red Epic is because no other housing from other manufacturers offered anything close to 4k quality, distortion-free images, ability to shoot at wide apertures, reliability or the size and weight that I was after.

Of course, the lack of objective measurable or comparable data and images from all manufacturers except us speaks volumes, but there is nothing like a comparison.

I'm always interested in participating in a test as this is exactly what we do to market our products: put them on the scales, measure them up and quantify the optical performance. Love it :)
Click to expand...
 
Will - testing underwater housing out of the water is like buying a bride on the internet... ;o)
Just ask Graeme - there are several professional techniques to measure IQ from the actual images captured.
Also - as the proverbial saying goes - picture is worth a thousand words...
There are underwater charts that you can shoot as well...

For what is worth - I would also throw a shout on behalf of Pawel...

Peter
 
Done,

I've contact all the builders directly, lets see who shows up.

Jeremy 0sbern said:
You can't purchase a rig, but you should throw Hydroflex in the mix. I've used their gear multiple times.
Click to expand...
 
Peter Majtan said:
Will - testing underwater housing out of the water is like buying a bride on the internet... ;o)
Click to expand...

ha, ha, ha, thanks Peter. Good one. Love your quote. I may talk to you about licensing it :)

Will, we are the only manufacturer who measures, publishes and compares different underwater optics. As a scientist I can not improve or compare something that I can't quantify. The industry's standard way of doing it is by measuring MTF. We measure MTF in every single point of the frame, not just in the centre. The results of our measurements are very telling, in fact they proved very uncomfortable to the rest of the community that use porthole solutions (dome ports and flat ports).

The bottom line is that there is close to an order of a magnitude (!) difference in optical performance between Nikonos 15mm and dome and flat ports. We have published detailed results, charts and the process (using Imatest) with comparative numbers for flat and dome ports. And, with confidence we can say that we have the only system that:

1. Does not produce image plane curvature
2. Does not produce severe chromatic aberrations
3. Does not suffer from astigmatism
4. Does not create geometric distortions
5. Is the only large sensor optics able to resolve more than about 1.5k (and beyond see points 6. and 7.)
6. Is the only underwater optics that out resolves the Epic sensor in every point of the frame (the sensor is the limitation)
7. Is the only underwater optics resolving 5k and beyond

As you can imagine, this caused quite a stir in the community that either was already invested in other setups (users and manufacturers), some more eloquent than others. Some criticised the limited lens choices and wide angle capability, others simply called me "Ahole of the highest caliber [sic.]" and "MF". Who would have thought numbers could be so emotional?

You can still access the closed Underwater bubble blowers' thread and find our MTF charts and quantitative data, but you will understand, why I'm reluctunt to publish any more hard numbers anywhere else except on our website.

One year has passed since our first release and to this date we are still the only manufacturer to offer a housing with optics that do not compromise image quaility on Red Epic. Housings that are by far the lightest, smallest and manufactured to ISO 9100 quality standard...something no other maker seem to be able to match.
 
Monitoring Options and Camera Controls?

Monitoring Options and Camera Controls?

What are the monitoring options for the DeepX system? Looks like you have to somehow mount a monitor inside the housing maybe? Have you developed a standardized way to do that? And will a monitor fit in the housing with a Red Brick mounted on the camera?

Does the DeepX allow access to the standard controls? Thinking power/record, resolution, framerate, shutter.

How would the DeepX perform in a surf-type setting? Think I read somewhere here about the lenses only really working well when they're actually underwater.

The optical advantages of the DeepX look significant, but can it compare with the Deep Epic's control functionality?
 
Hi Andy,
I have used both Pawels housing and I own a Deep Epic, to answer your questions
He uses a smaHD monitor inside and yes that fits with a brick
You have access to record / power and one of the assign buttons (maybe you can have both as a custom order)
The redmote however will work through the housing to have access to all other controls on surface.

I believe Nikonos do make a lenses that works above water I can't remember what focal length it is though off hand. I have recently been involved in a feature shooting in surf with my Deep Epic and it was tough due to its size but it is beautifully balanced underwater
 
Andy Maser said:
What are the monitoring options for the DeepX system? Looks like you have to somehow mount a monitor inside the housing maybe? Have you developed a standardized way to do that? And will a monitor fit in the housing with a Red Brick mounted on the camera?

Does the DeepX allow access to the standard controls? Thinking power/record, resolution, framerate, shutter.

How would the DeepX perform in a surf-type setting? Think I read somewhere here about the lenses only really working well when they're actually underwater.

The optical advantages of the DeepX look significant, but can it compare with the Deep Epic's control functionality?
Click to expand...


Hi Andy,

There are following internal monitoring options: smallHD DP4, RED 5.6" with +1 Module, ikan VL-5 or just about any other monitor smaller than RED 5.6".We also offer external monitoring using Nauticam smallHD housing. The bulkhead connectors are fully compatible with DeepX.

There is a range of above-water sealed lenses, notably the Nikonos LW-28mm, but UW-35 and UW-80mm are designed to produce excellent results both under and above water.

You have access to power/record/stop side button and to the two front buttons that can be assigned to just about any functions including frame rate and shutter. We have decided against integrating Redmote into the housing because of the size/weight and mostly because of reliability issues with the Redmote, which some users of other housings reported extensively.


Frankly, I have never ran out of "buttons" on DeepX or 3Deep, so I'm not sure what "control functionality" you would like us to support in addition to what we already offer.More information and more complete answers to your questions can be found on our website here: http://achtel.com/DeepX/


Will,

On a practical note, I suggest that the easiest way to make a decision is to request each manufacturer to provide 5k frame grabs of a zone chart, SFR chart or even a pretty picture with lots of small, high-contrast detail extending from corner to corner. Another one would be to evaluate distortions on something like a pool shot, or even any scenic shot with camera panning or movement. And, form your own opinion.

I found most operators and manufacturers rather shy to publish 5k frame grabs or any factual information allowing evaluation of optical performance of their rigs.Our 5k frame grabs and footage links are here for everyone to see: http://achtel.com/DeepX/images.htm

We can arrange for 4k screening at Band Pro in Burbank and we can supply R3Ds for evaluation.

I'm also happy to send you or anyone else our detailed MTF graphs and measurements for Nikonos 15mm and Master Primes behind flat port and dome port. The bottom line is the former out-resolves the Epic sensor throughout the aperture range and the latter does not deliver even 1k any f-stop.

By "does not resolve" I mean when MTF reaches 0% and no amount of sharpenning or post processing can recover the information.

Hope it helps :)
 
The Nikonos lenses use the water as part of their optics but they also make lenses that work above and below water according to Pawel:

Nikonos 35mm
Nikonos 80mm
Aquatica Aqua lens with manual focus Nikon lenses.
Your widest option would be Nikon 16mm AIS behind Aquatica Aqualens.
Also Sea&Sea 12mm fisheye should work above water.

Jon Shaw said:
I believe Nikonos do make a lenses that works above water I can't remember what focal length it is though off hand.
Click to expand...
 
Amphibico is in with their new "Rouge," Pawel's "Deep X," as well. Matt Brown at HydroFlex is willing.
 
Last edited:
Pawel Achtel said:
Hi Andy,

There are following internal monitoring options: smallHD DP4, RED 5.6" with +1 Module, ikan VL-5 or just about any other monitor smaller than RED 5.6".We also offer external monitoring using Nauticam smallHD housing. The bulkhead connectors are fully compatible with DeepX.

There is a range of above-water sealed lenses, notably the Nikonos LW-28mm, but UW-35 and UW-80mm are designed to produce excellent results both under and above water.

You have access to power/record/stop side button and to the two front buttons that can be assigned to just about any functions including frame rate and shutter. We have decided against integrating Redmote into the housing because of the size/weight and mostly because of reliability issues with the Redmote, which some users of other housings reported extensively.


Frankly, I have never ran out of "buttons" on DeepX or 3Deep, so I'm not sure what "control functionality" you would like us to support in addition to what we already offer.More information and more complete answers to your questions can be found on our website here: http://achtel.com/DeepX/
Click to expand...

Great, thanks. Your site is just vague about monitoring options and camera controls. From what I gathered, the housing only had 2 control buttons, which seemed limited compared to a Gates setup with REDMote. Sounds like there's actually 3, which could be plenty. All I'd ever want to do is turn it on and off, start and stop recording and change resolution/frame rate/shutter speed. I'm far from a preset expert--can you set an assign button to hold the 3 variables at once? IE: Assign 1: 4k/120fps/240 shutter - Assign 2: 5k/24fps/48 shutter

The idea of the lens using the water as part of the optical system is pretty interesting. I do lots of underwater nat history shooting, primarily in rivers where the camera sometimes moves in and out of the water. I've definitely noticed the dramatic focal length difference with standard lenses taken underwater. (setting focal length above water, drop camera into water, object the same distance away is no longer in focus) Will the UW Nikkor lenses (ie 15mm) not focus at all above water or is there just a similar focal length difference that needs to be adjusted for?


Thanks,
Andy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top