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DRAGON vs HELIUM !!!

Adrian Weinbrecht

Adrian Weinbrecht

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Hi Fellow Red users

I own 2x Red Dragons, 1x Epic and 1x Scarlet, I love the image from both cameras. I bought both as MX sensor cameras then upgraded to the Dragon sensor.

The question is, should I upgrade the Scarlet to an Epic W ? I have no image quality concerns at the moment. Red have really nailed the colour science on the Dragon sensor.

I won't be able to bill much more to my clients for camera rental on shoots with the Epic W. I see the 8k chip having better low light capabilities and also the ProRes will come in handy, however these are relatively small improvements (to me) regarding the capital outlay.

I'd love to hear from anyone who's jumped to the Helium sensor and those whom have considered but haven't changed for whatever reason.

Thank you all in advance for your assistance and feedback.
 
try to find a Weapon Magnesium Dragon. Best of two worlds.
6k (lower data rates) and Dragon Lowlight olpf best lowlight results (after Monstro of course...).

Pat
 
Hey Thanks Pat

Let me look into this more.

On another note, I did work experience in Lausanne many years ago with a photographer called 'Thierry Froidevaux' Switzerland was my first experience of Europe when I moved over from Australia, I still love the place !
 
Frankly, I wouldn't bother with Helium unless it is to get you on the path to Monstro. DSMC2 is a huge step up in practicality and a subtle improvement in image quality when using a Dragon sensor. The Helium always seemed like a stopgap to cover problems with Dragon production and now Monstro is here it seems like the worst of all worlds - 8k required for an S35mm field of view.
 
Ben Scott said:
Frankly, I wouldn't bother with Helium unless it is to get you on the path to Monstro. DSMC2 is a huge step up in practicality and a subtle improvement in image quality when using a Dragon sensor. The Helium always seemed like a stopgap to cover problems with Dragon production and now Monstro is here it seems like the worst of all worlds - 8k required for an S35mm field of view.
Click to expand...

To clarify the above, the "it" of the last sentence refers to Helium, not Monstro. Monstro is not the worst of all worlds.

To weigh in on the above: I have a Fujinon Premiere Zoom lens that is SHARP SHARP SHARP. But it's also very much just an S35 lens. On DRAGON I'm limited to 5K (which is one reason I bought a SCARLET DRAGON back in the day). Saving room to reframe, I'm really shooting 4K in a 5K window. On Helium I can shoot 7K, which is actually very nice. Also, much of my shooting takes place in low-key environments (recording studios). DRAGON's colorful noise in the shadows is fun for about 10 seconds. DEB helps with that, and my RR-X made quick work of DRAGON frame processing. But in the end, the overwhelming prevalence of lots of darks in my shots made sensitized me to an aspect of DRAGON that, while much improved in DSMC2, was really perfected with Helium. So now I suffer using only half my RR-X's computing capabilities (it can de-wavelet but not de-bayer) Helium files. I don't shoot a lot of slo-mo, so I don't suffer the fact that windowing down to 6K for good frame rates puts a real squeeze on the wide end of the lens kit.

RED have also done a great job with IPP2, not only for Helium (which fully supports it in camera), but back-porting the support for RWG and Log3G10 so that all cameras can use it. Resolve fumbled their first integration of IPP2 (the output and creative LUT support is a mess) and Premiere Pro have not even shown up to the game yet. So today DRAGON remains a perfectly respectable platform, especially when using RWG instead of DC2 and Log3G10 instead of RLF. If the color noise doesn't bug you, perhaps because you have the option to light your scenes sensibly, great! And if it does bug you, upgrading SCARLET to EPIC-W will cut that noise by 80%. Helium will cut it again another 80%. How much each cut is worth is really between you and your wallet, and whether you want/need to shoot wide and slo-mo.

Since you have a SCARLET, I'm going to guess that you don't have that big need for slo-mo, in which case I would say the real question comes down only to the dark noise. DSCM1 accessories (including RR-X) are cheaper than ever--a great way to get ahead on the profit game if that's your interest.
 
I have a weapon magnesium im about to put up for sale. Really nice package, PM me if your interested and I can send you info

I definitely prefer weapon magnesium over Epic-W, the frame rates are so limiting on Epic-W, and dragon in the DSMC2 body rocks for sure. And they just gave it 4k prores too so thats cool. And honestly, post doesn't want 8k, just my experience.
 
Looks like Helium does not get much love here, I absolutely prefer the images, it is basically everything I ever wanted, so much cleaner. Nobody will be able to judge for you, why don´t you just rent and check for yourself? Cheers!
 
I don't understand the fussle about frame rate and crop with EpicW.
I shoot a lot highspeed at 6K with my EpicW and don't see any limitation at all so far. Crop isn't that bad as many say. But maybe I am not the super wide angle guy anyway, never was.
And if highspeed is not required, 8K gives you the ability to pull nice 35Mio stills if you don't have a lot of motion. Even from drone I get nice stills out of 8K timeline. Furthermore, 8K is not an issue for post production houses. At least not here in Switzerland, and many other countries.

Both Dragon Weapon and Helium are very fine cameras. At the end, everyone has to make his/her own decision.
For me, such big investments are based on job demand and ROI.
My EpicW has already been paid off within a year.

I am curious to know what most folks think how long it will take them to pay off Weapon CF/Monstro and start to make profit with their camera.
 
Last edited:
Adrian Weinbrecht said:
Hi Fellow Red users

I own 2x Red Dragons, 1x Epic and 1x Scarlet, I love the image from both cameras. I bought both as MX sensor cameras then upgraded to the Dragon sensor.

The question is, should I upgrade the Scarlet to an Epic W ? I have no image quality concerns at the moment. Red have really nailed the colour science on the Dragon sensor.

I won't be able to bill much more to my clients for camera rental on shoots with the Epic W. I see the 8k chip having better low light capabilities and also the ProRes will come in handy, however these are relatively small improvements (to me) regarding the capital outlay.

I'd love to hear from anyone who's jumped to the Helium sensor and those whom have considered but haven't changed for whatever reason.

Thank you all in advance for your assistance and feedback.
Click to expand...


Helium is to me a better pick than dragon 6k. The light sensitivity is greater and the DR is wider, then you also got more pixels and on a sensor size that is more suitable for cinema lenses.

With the above helium produce a better picture by far, it was a struggle when in beta for color science reasons but thats now passed and I think will improve even further, My guess is helium will improve over time, where as dragon color science will remain what it is.

Sure the drawbacks for having 8k in S35 sensor size is when you go high speed then it quickly starts to crop down especially on W.

But to me helium is worth the extra costs compared to dragon 6k.

Thai Christen said:
I don't understand the fussle about frame rate and crop with EpicW.
I shoot a lot highspeed at 6K with my EpicW and don't see any limitation at all so far. Crop isn't that bad as many say. But maybe I am not the super wide angle guy anyway, never was.
And if highspeed is not required, 8K gives you the ability to pull nice 35Mio stills if you don't have a lot of motion. Even from drone I get nice stills out of 8K timeline. Furthermore, 8K is not an issue for post production houses. At least not here in Switzerland, and many other countries.

Both Dragon Weapon and Helium are very fine cameras. At the end, everyone has to make his/her own decision.
For me, such big investments are based on job demand and ROI.
My EpicW has already been paid off within a year.

I am curious to know what most folks think how long it will take them to pay off Weapon CF/Monstro and start to make profit with their camera.
Click to expand...

Its not so much about the actual field of new change, that is easily compensated for with a wider lens. But more the fact that you start to use the center of the lens, which narrows down actual resolution of the lens. Kind of like using an extender for a lens. Doing that when also shooting high speed, which a lot of times comes with lower light levels gives you more grain, less lens resolution and then its topped of with high compressions... not the best combo simply.
 
Björn Benckert said:
Its not so much about the actual field of new change, that is easily compensated for with a wider lens. But more the fact that you start to use the center of the lens, which narrows down actual resolution of the lens. Kind of like using an extender for a lens. Doing that when also shooting high speed, which a lot of times comes with lower light levels gives you more grain, less lens resolution and then its topped of with high compressions... not the best combo simply.
Click to expand...

Well, I am not a lens expert nor a pixel peeper. When an image looks good to me, then it is good. Helium IPP2 looks better than Dragon, out of camera. Period. Even in 6K at 50fps which I shoot most for highspeed.
 
Thai Christen said:
Well, I am not a lens expert nor a pixel peeper. When an image looks good to me, then it is good. Helium IPP2 looks better than Dragon, out of camera. Period. Even in 6K at 50fps which I shoot most for highspeed.
Click to expand...

Im not a expert either. And no real need, quite simply to see that dragon 6k does not cover a lot of lenses. Sure helium also has the same issue with certain glass but less less so.
 
Ulf Krentz said:
Looks like Helium does not get much love here, I absolutely prefer the images, it is basically everything I ever wanted, so much cleaner. Nobody will be able to judge for you, why don´t you just rent and check for yourself? Cheers!
Click to expand...

Agree, find this odd. So far the biggest step up from previous cameras as I see it. But I think the confusion was the unfinished colors when released. And I think/ guess that helium colors will improve even more.
 
How much cleaner is Helium than Dragon after RED reset the ISO calibration back one stop?
 
Akin A said:
How much cleaner is Helium than Dragon after RED reset the ISO calibration back one stop?
Click to expand...

Iso calibration does not have much to do with how clean a camera shoot. ISO = digital gain to taste.

By that I mean that if its dark and you put a helium next to a dragon you will be able to eak out a cleaner image out of the helium and also have more latitude. What settings, iso, kelvin etc you use to get best possible result out of the two is second to what the camera actually sees. Helium has a wider span of DR and sees more into the dark. Sure it will clip before dragon but if you put an ND .3 infront of helium it will still see more in the dark and it will clip at about the same time as dragon.

To me that defines helium as better camera.
 
Hello Björn,

I'm not quite sure about the DR from Heilum vs Dragon. My observation are that Dragon with LLO sees better than Helium with the same noise / texture (subjective observation of course). And the clipping point with LLO is in favor of the Dragon in the Weapon body. Now we are talking in the 1/2 stop subjective realm. The big plus of the Helium is the resolution gain without loosing a lot more of DR than we could have thought.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
Hello Björn,

I'm not quite sure about the DR from Heilum vs Dragon. My observation are that Dragon with LLO sees better than Helium with the same noise / texture (subjective observation of course). And the clipping point with LLO is in favor of the Dragon in the Weapon body. Now we are talking in the 1/2 stop subjective realm. The big plus of the Helium is the resolution gain without loosing a lot more of DR than we could have thought.
Click to expand...

Pat, did you shoot both Dragon and Helium in the same scenario and lighting condition?
R3d files of both shots Helium and Dragon so everyone can take a look? I am curious because I lean towards Björn's statement
 
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