DRAGON vs EPIC MX Noise - NOT GOOD

[Matt Ryan]

13 seconds = 12h, wow, that´s too long ... what set up ? footage on a raid or internal drive ?

i shot 2 weeks ago in a very dark coaster of a familypark, material needed to be pushed up to 4000, i selected those shots (11 shots from 5 seconds to 20 seconds), drag them on the internal SSD of the Mac Pro and rendered them with ADD over the night, footage was 100% useable and looked fine under this extreme conditions

footage on internal ssd, macbook pro retina 15" (Latest Model maxed out top specs). Yeah, pretty crazy it took so long. I kept checking and after a couple hours and only 28% I went to bed haha. Next morning, still working... I was also using the unsharp mask in the ADD setup as well so I'm sure that added to the time.. Exported it as UHD. P.S. it wasn't a shot that needed it, just wanted to test it out and see the outcome.

 

[Jan Reiff]

the mac pro is much more faster, i did test it on my macbook pro too, but the mac pro (8core, D700, 64GB Ram and 1TB SSD) is another thing - so or so, you are right indeed, it´s not the solution forever, ... i am very optimistic we will have ADD-like images soon without massive renderings , ... the sensor has the power, that´s fact

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

and without ADD, ISO 800 and ISO4000

http://we.tl/q7X2vENv5O

Pushing an otherwise meaningful exposed R3D to ISO 4000+ is not a proof that a sensor is exceptionally sensitive. It shows that a sensor that got enough light, in this case enough light for a normal exposure at ISO 800 in Red terms, can be pushed in a software to a brighter picture not exhibiting much noise. A real ISO 4000 exposure would look significantly underexposed at ISO 800.

Hans

 

[paul schefz]

ADD only works with RCX so right there....

Jan, you mentioned a shoot at a very dark location....the way dragon was advertised was that iso 4000 would be a one stop push....so there is noise to be expected....according to everything i have seen and everything shown here 4000 is more like 4 stop push.....and that in itself might not be a problem but considering the announcements and official comparisons with the other camera (that starts with A)....

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

I'm on a maxed out 8 core nMP off a thunderbolt 2 RAID array. It's still slow as shit. That's for single frames. I wouldn't dare wait that long on a render for video.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

... the sensor has the power, that´s fact

Yes, but needs some tweaking regarding noise. IMHO, its the colourfulness of the noise that is the problem. It's a colour science subject. And thus, I'm pretty confident that Jarred and his team will resolve this issue in a few weeks.

But Dragon won't become an ISO 2000 camera. Very unlikely. And I never expected it to be. But noise-free ISO 800 is what I expected.

Hans

 

[Jan Reiff]

Pushing an otherwise meaningful exposed R3D to ISO 4000+ is not a proof that a sensor is exceptionally sensitive. It shows that a sensor that got enough light, in this case enough light for a normal exposure at ISO 800 in Red terms, can be pushed in a software to a brighter picture not exhibiting much noise. A real ISO 4000 exposure would look significantly underexposed at ISO 800.

Hans

never said that the sensor is exceptionally sensitive, just said, you can push some underexposed areas quite good (and the wooden horse is pretty dark in real viewing)

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Currently ADD is not an option for video. It's not leveraging the GPU and I'm not very optimistic that it will work on the GPU in the next couple of months. And even then, it will remain a highly power-hungry process that will never be fast or even in the realm of that what we had 6 years ago with RedLine. I shudder when I recall the render times in 2008.

Hans

 

[Elsie N]

ADD takes about 35-40 seconds per frame on my Mac Pro, how in the world can I tell a client they should wait a week for their footage to be run through ADD?

Not a viable solution.

Obviously it's not for you... but if I needed it and it would help my feature, I would wait months on it to finish. But I allow for your individual taste.

 

[Jan Reiff]

if i have a film, and need 2 minutes to "rescue" footage with ADD, i take it and render it 2 days, ... like Elsie said, it´s not impossible
but again, if you need ADD, you had not enough light (or time (!!!) at the set ;-)

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

never said that the sensor is exceptionally sensitive, just said, you can push some underexposed areas quite good (and the wooden horse is pretty dark in real viewing)

Jan, I wouldn't say that your shot is unexposed. I find it a clean shot with a nice motif - as far one can tell by JPGs. I don't think that's a good reference for noise in Dragon originated pictures.

Check this shot. It has been exposed at ISO 800, DragonColour, RedLogFilm and uses the full range Dragon has to offer which is a lot BTW.


http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=53310&stc=1&d=1402436516


Hans

 

[Jan Reiff]

give me 10 min, i will shoot a candle situations here, it´s interesting, as we can compare all this with the same set up in 1-2 weeks maybe with a new firmware (?) ... 5-10 min ... i just want to take it in Da Vinci and try to get the best out of the frame ...

 

[Jan Reiff]

okay, jesus, my mac is burning ;-)

okay, this is classic, just one candle in the whole room.

http://we.tl/j5ODa325Ky


what can i get out of it to present the Bond book ...

will be interesting to see what we will get in some weeks, ...

if you want it "bright" - i needed to go to 4000 and more, it´s noisy, indeed.
with ADD (sorry) it´s better

in Da Vinci i took a ISO 800 base with some NR, and i put it on a HD screen, and i would say it´s not unusable, in my opinion, Dragon keeps better details and colors in bad conditions than MX

so, will be more than interesting, to do this shot again when Jarred says: "now, try it again"

Edit: as you see, the candle light is even hidden behind the wax, so it was not very bright, ... i will use the same candle then, ... ;-) merry Christmas !

 

[Rob Macey]

I have a few clients that prefer ProRes 4444 as deliverables. Dragon looks absolutely beautiful and noise free from 250-800 rolling on the Pix240 in DC/RG4 or DC/RLF. Just passing this information along.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I have a few clients that prefer ProRes 4444 as deliverables. Dragon looks absolutely beautiful and noise free from 250-800 rolling on the Pix240 in DC/RG4 or DC/RLF. Just passing this information along.

Also, a good friend of mind just completed a Dragon shoot in Times Square at 2000 ISO with a motion mount...dropped his footage into resolve...added a tiny amount of noise reduction...and said the results looked INSANE!

Hoping he chimes in at some point...

Can only imagine how good it will look once Graeme tweaks the RED channel a bit...

Also my friend specifically said he LOVES the highlight rolloff on new OLPF, and wants desperately to keep this at all costs.

Looking forward to seeing how this all sorts out!!

 

[Rob Macey]

Also, a good friend of mind just completed a Dragon shoot in Times Square at 2000 ISO with a motion mount...dropped his footage into resolve...added a tiny amount of noise reduction...and said the results looked INSANE!

Hoping he chimes in at some point...

Can only imagine how good it will look once Graeme tweaks the RED channel a bit...

Also my friend specifically said he LOVES the highlight rolloff on new OLPF, and wants desperately to keep this at all costs.

Looking forward to seeing how this all sorts out!!

Nice. However, my Dragon noise is still there on R3d's. But, good to know ext. recording looks great.

 

[paul schefz]

Also, a good friend of mind just completed a Dragon shoot in Times Square at 2000 ISO with a motion mount...dropped his footage into resolve...added a tiny amount of noise reduction...and said the results looked INSANE!

Hoping he chimes in at some point...

Can only imagine how good it will look once Graeme tweaks the RED channel a bit...

Also my friend specifically said he LOVES the highlight rolloff on new OLPF, and wants desperately to keep this at all costs.

Looking forward to seeing how this all sorts out!!

how does the motion mount influence all this? other then adding a stop ND.......
another reason why i was hoping for a little better light performance with dragon....ability to use the motion mount without having to go to higher iso....

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Or add lights...

Frankly (and I feel/know that I am maybe one of few, and this is NOT to take away from the concern of the OP), one of the real things I have missed with RED cameras before Dragon is the ability to shoot outdoor-scenes without ND 1.8 or higher. Highlight, not lowlight performance is what has to me made it sometimes cumbersome...

But I guess that's just me.

 

[Jan Reiff]

Gunleik is right, for low light you have light to "paint" your image, but outside, you fight against a light that no rental house will ever have ...

 

[Adrian Weinbrecht]

My apologies if someone else has raised this already...

BUT WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE ?

To calibrate the dragon sensor so that at lower ISO's, let's say 400 and below we have the maximum DR ? (Dynamic Range)

Normally we would use lower ISO when shooting outdoors in bright sometimes contrasty less controllable light, so this is when we need all the DR we can get.

Then as we increase the ISO above 400 we start to loose some DR but we keep the grain cleaner and smoother.

Could this be a realistic trade off ?

I'd happily lose a stop or more or DR if the images were much cleaner.

Just a thought.......

Is this even possible or realistic ?