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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON vs EPIC MX Noise - NOT GOOD

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2nd test

2nd test

i just throw this 2nd and fast test in the field ...

http://we.tl/uVVFgPa4Im

without ADD

the difference between my cameras seems to be not as strong as Eric´s ... i see advantages at the dragon image, as i could open more the red prime until clipping outside ... so more light on the shadows ...

but in general all of you are right, i have old OLPF footage here and this actually has a cleaner feeling in the shadows, especially the chroma noise seems more with the new OLPF ... ,

but i am sure we will get the best of both soon from RED ...

good thing is, i will never shoot under this light conditions ever a serious scene ;-)


here is one with ADD:

http://we.tl/rIfF48F3Vi

i am now in car, following here later ...
 
I'm almost sure this is a problem that can be fixed with firmware. What's harder to repair is Red's reputation. It's worrying to think someone in QC looked at the noise levels I'm seeing on my camera and let it go out the door. That's my real issue. This is a critical time for Red with the Dragon really starting to hit the ground and I had to tell a producer that my camera was unavailable yesterday for a night shoot due to a malfunction. How many other producers will hear the same thing by the time this is fixed?

That being said, I appreciate Red addressing this issue quickly and I'm willing to cut them some slack because it's a new sensor and they clearly have been rushing to meet demand.
 
Agreed. This sounds like a firmware/color science fix rather than a new OLPF. But it is worrying as an owner who's trying to justify the price increase for rentals or the workflow for producers. So hopefully this is addressed sooner than later. But being this is their flagship product I don't see RED wasting any time.
 
I think we can all agree that the last thing red (or its owner ops) needs is more FUD, or more red myths to debunk... This thread is productive, and a good way for us as a group to post results and work on the issue with Red...

That being said I respectfully BEG that you lock this thread so that ONLY registered RU members can read it AND post...After that GH4 piece on No Film School I really think the last thing we need is to let Arri, or NFS, or Sony, or whoever take this discussion and run with it, or let producers read it. I am not suggesting deleting it or locking it, since its an important discussion for us as red users, but for the sake of the reputation of the new model it really should be made so only registered members can read it or post.. That can at least hopefully mitigate some damage... if a firmware solution is really on the way in the short term I see no reason to turn this into a months or a years long Red myth...Even containment temporarily would be a huge help...


@Ivan no one has said it needs a new OLPF again, yet. And technically if you account for firmware (our current understanding of their solution on the way) there are tons of different reds out there. Its up to us as owner ops/rental guys to make sure we stay on point firmware wise.. I know for sure we all will be scrambling to download this next one...
 
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IMHO there are two lines of dialogue

1. Directly with RED (in many cases preferable if possible)
2. Here

Making it "members only" will only add to the FUD as far as I can understand it. It's like having it in the "mods" section. (yup, there really is such a section. Scary? mohahahahaha)
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Unsurprisingly, I am all for documentation. And problemsolving.

I think this is a healthy discussion. And I'm all for it :)

And if I am interpreted as "don't scream", it is because I think it is important to not lose track of what we're dealing with here: a great cam that can get better and the resolution of an issue.

But...
There is a tendency here at times to maximise problems in one moment, and complain why other cameras get the rental bizz the next.
The willingness I have seen here at times to badmouth ones own investment (to solve issues, I am sure), and then the next moment being surprised over the "FUD on RED out there", is... at times... How to put this?
Somewhat entertaining.

I happen to think that there is at times a corelation about how equipment is perceived, and how people talk about it here and other places.

I had the opportunity to duo-shoot epic and Dragon the other day, and no matter these issues, or others I may be aware of, there is no stopping me picking the Dragon 100 out of 100 times, if given the option.
This was not my cam, and it was new olpf.

That's what I mean by: don't lose track.
And I cannot really see myself as "just a RED servant", as I know I have had good and bad times with my relation to RED. :)

So all I say, and mean, is:
Keep it civil.
Document
Get in a dialogue with RED, if possible.

And let's give things the focus they deserve, without burning down the house.

Just an opinion of course. But still a heartfelt one.

Cheers

G
Click to expand...

So true, Gunleik. Reminds me of the thread after Jim lowered the price of the Epic. All the renters were screaming how this would cause their cameras to rent cheaper and one poster made the statement that "the people renting our cameras read Reduser and they know this is going to lower the rental price!"

By predicting the rentals would be cheaper, I suppose this became a self-fulfilling prophecy '-)

Anyway, I am glad my cameras are for my own personal use and not for rent. There are some people who have posted here on this thread I would steer clear of if I were looking to hire someone for a shoot on Dragon. By the same token, there are people here on this thread who know how to utilize the Dragon in any circumstance that I would hire in a heartbeat.

But as many may have noticed, a lot of the complainers posting on this thread don't even own a Dragon.
 
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This is only a 2 second clip BUT it is at 6400 iso. And I think it looks pretty damn good. When the exposure is there you can do pretty much whatever you want. 320 on my dragon looks pretty darn fantastic. even 800 looks just fine. NEW OLPF DC/RG2
 
Regarding the noise, I have taken a chill pill and am patiently awaiting the update.

But this thing Jared said:

Jarred Land said:
On the flip side as some people already pointed out it is also not fair to the MX sensor to compare it to the Dragon at lower ISO's, because the Dragon at lower than "native" ISO is not at a disadvantage like the M and the MX sensor was , so the Dragon becomes exponentially better the lower in ISO you go..
Click to expand...

This is an exciting idea. Is there a theoretical floor to Dragon ISO? Could we shoot at ISO50?

Can anyone point out more information on why this is the case, technically, I mean?
 
Domenic Barbero said:

This is only a 2 second clip BUT it is at 6400 iso. And I think it looks pretty damn good. When the exposure is there you can do pretty much whatever you want. 320 on my dragon looks pretty darn fantastic. even 800 looks just fine. NEW OLPF DC/RG2
Click to expand...

Heck, yeah, it looks great for 6400. This is a very dynamic issue to say the least.
 
Brian Merlen said:
That being said I respectfully BEG that you lock this thread so that ONLY registered RU members can read it AND post...After that GH4 piece on No Film School I really think the last thing we need is to let Arri, or NFS, or Sony, or whoever take this discussion and run with it, or let producers read it. I am not suggesting deleting it or locking it, since its an important discussion for us as red users, but for the sake of the reputation of the new model it really should be made so only registered members can read it or post.. That can at least hopefully mitigate some damage... if a firmware solution is really on the way in the short term I see no reason to turn this into a months or a years long Red myth...Even containment temporarily would be a huge help...
Click to expand...

I think that would have the exact opposite effect and add a tremendous amount of scrutiny and further ruin the integrity of this board. I could just imagine the responses-- "If the camera's so great, why are they blocking/deleting threads?" Really awful idea, IMO.

Red moved mountains to fix the original OLPF issue and it was a huge testament to Red's commitment to quality. No reason it can't be done here as well, and would just further that testament.
 
i don't get it....what is the official announcement now other then:"we are looking into it"? does anyone really think that firmware will make good on the the "clean 2000" promise? or are we going to discuss what "clean 2000" actually means? old or new OLPF the reality is not anywhere near the 2000 is the new 800.....
it might be ok for some to shoot at 250 and that is not really the issue....the issue is the promise of 2000 and that the reality is more like 500....
someone here even mentioned shoot 6K for clean 4k delivery......so really the dragon is a 4k camera after all?
of course RED should b e looking into this.....
 
@CJ


maybe your right and it would just make things more prevalent...i just don't want it to turn into a red myth if a firmware update is forthcoming shortly but the competitors start running with it now...they won't revise their storyline even when the firmware fixes the issue...and thats why these red myths get out of control...like one camera overheats or dies on set and they repost and blow it out proportion to the point where people think its mainstream...i have faith this bug will be short lived and just hope the competitors don't try and push it for months after the issue is resolved is all...cuz that seems to be exactly why we have so much FUD in the first place... the anti red guys just run with the stuff even once the issues are solved and its like i still need to debunk red myths from Red One M sensors at this point, its crazy how they try and push this nonsense on producers even years after problems are gone...
 
Domenic Barbero said:

This is only a 2 second clip BUT it is at 6400 iso. And I think it looks pretty damn good. When the exposure is there you can do pretty much whatever you want. 320 on my dragon looks pretty darn fantastic. even 800 looks just fine. NEW OLPF DC/RG2
Click to expand...

Post R3D clip plz
 
Domenic Barbero said:
Send me your email and ill share a folder with you
Click to expand...

drop box links work well for me on RU as far as sharing goes personally... you can r3d trim it or r3d snapshot stuff if its too long...
 
paul schefz said:
i don't get it....what is the official announcement now other then:"we are looking into it"? does anyone really think that firmware will make good on the the "clean 2000" promise? or are we going to discuss what "clean 2000" actually means? old or new OLPF the reality is not anywhere near the 2000 is the new 800.....
it might be ok for some to shoot at 250 and that is not really the issue....the issue is the promise of 2000 and that the reality is more like 500....
someone here even mentioned shoot 6K for clean 4k delivery......so really the dragon is a 4k camera after all?
of course RED should b e looking into this.....
Click to expand...

Maybe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaQdnn4g5y8 will cheer you up. '-)
 
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Brian Merlen said:
@Ivan no one has said it needs a new OLPF again, yet. And technically if you account for firmware (our current understanding of their solution on the way) there are tons of different reds out there. Its up to us as owner ops/rental guys to make sure we stay on point firmware wise.. I know for sure we all will be scrambling to download this next one...
Click to expand...

I never said it needs a new OLPF, read again.

When the OLPF was changed the cam needed to go back to RED to be 're-calibrated'. I believe that more than the OLPF it was the 're-calibration' that created this issue which is why I don't think a firmware update will fix it.

I could be wrong, I am just guessing same as those who see this as fixable by firmware.

I will be much happier if it is a firmware fix because then there will only be Dragon 1.0 and Dragon 1.1. Far less permutations to worry about.
 
paul schefz said:
i don't get it....what is the official announcement now other then:"we are looking into it"? does anyone really think that firmware will make good on the the "clean 2000" promise? or are we going to discuss what "clean 2000" actually means? old or new OLPF the reality is not anywhere near the 2000 is the new 800.....
it might be ok for some to shoot at 250 and that is not really the issue....the issue is the promise of 2000 and that the reality is more like 500....
someone here even mentioned shoot 6K for clean 4k delivery......so really the dragon is a 4k camera after all?
of course RED should b e looking into this.....
Click to expand...

This is a rip from Matt's chart from yesterday - I don't think we're that far off 800=2000 with current configuration.

Granted it's a chart, etc., etc. But it's not like we're in a completely different world of noise.

Dragon2000MX800-2.png
 
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