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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon vs Alexa 65

Boy there sure is a lot of preaching to the choir going on here.
So many self justifying assumptions without even having seen any real output or having worked with the camera yet.
Gotta say, brings out the devilish troll in me:

Everyone knows that this new ARRI camera will be the clear winner in a head to head with 6K Dragon.
Too bad you will never be able to afford it.
:devil:
 
Dunkan Wolf said:
Who cares? Alexa has a fine sensor... and an even finer build quality. arguebly better than Dragon in many ways. Now it's just bigger and sharper. Many people were complaining about Alexa not being 4k... now they have 6k and people are still complaining, it's funny. : -)

Arri has taken the lead. Hopefully Red will catch up.
Click to expand...

Hello,

Please tell me, are you gonna shoot 65mm? I dont see the leader here. Just a funny camera like the F65 is or like the D20 was.

The good news is they are considering >2k résolution. Too bad they didn't manage to do it in the s35mm format.

Pat
 
We shouldn't get too hung up on what was or wasn't "once said", it's what is being done today that's important,
and I'm sure this camera will be damned fine, I'm looking forward to seeing what is done with it. Full frame still makes
a lot of business sense in the evolution of the sensor. Anyway, there are a few gaps that need to be filled and exploited before the majority of us will be able to shoot medium format. ???
 
Clayton Burkhart said:
Boy there sure is a lot of preaching to the choir going on here.
So many self justifying assumptions without even having seen any real output or having worked with the camera yet.
Gotta say, brings out the devilish troll in me:

Everyone knows that this new ARRI camera will be the clear winner in a head to head with 6K Dragon.
Too bad you will never be able to afford it.
:devil:
Click to expand...

It had better be the clear winner for the money it costs. I think anyone would be crazy to assume the 6k Alexa paired with the new Primos wouldn't beat the pants off any other system.

That doesn't mean it's the best for a given task.... requires a lot of stop pulling focus on 65mm.
 
if red doesn't choose to leapfrog again, like they did with ONE. Dragon is "just" an evolutionary step from one.

going directly for a medium formAt 4;3 system with a series of optics out the door at a RED price, woukd be disruptive...

i still suck for thT 4:3 FF DRAGON, though
 
jake blackstone said:
Phil you know very well, that there is no confusing message coming from ARRI on the question of resolution. ARRI was very clear on the subject of necessity of 4k resolution for the scanners. On the other hand, for a long time, they advocated 2K for camera acquisition. I can't speak for ARRI, but my understanding of their design and marketing philosophy is they would rather do the best 2k image possible rather than release a mediocre 4k camera. And that was the reason for abandoning the Alexa 4k in 2011. In Alexa 65 they feel their image standard is maintained. Again not speaking for ARRI, but my feeling concerning the decision to do rental only (BTW, that can quickly change with the right market conditions) is to find the way to stop or at least to slow down the race to the bottom we're seeing in the market place right now.
Click to expand...

Jake I think Phil is also referencing the confusion surrounding Arri and their current position of "upconverting" Alexa to UHD. You are correct Arri stated they wanted to avoid producing a mediocre 4K camera, but this upconverting solution appears perilously close to being that same mediocre solution they dreaded.

However the Arri 65 is another animal, and shows Arri is clearly taking higher resolutions (and larger sensors) very seriously.

Which I think is great!
 
Gunleik Groven said:
if red doesn't choose to leapfrog again, like they did with ONE. Dragon is "just" an evolutionary step from one.

going directly for a medium formAt 4;3 system with a series of optics out the door at a RED price, woukd be disruptive...

i still suck for thT 4:3 FF DRAGON, though
Click to expand...

That's what I'm hoping for too. A 4:3 FF sensor with 9K's for an 8k and 4k finish, with a base sensitivity of 2000ISO noise free with 15 stops of DR. This will be huge for anamorphic shooters to finally have true 2x. If RED are able to keep it in a small package with decent frame rates, then it would be a winner! Some RPP's 2.0 would be nice to go along with it. Maybe even a global shutter..
 
Nick Morrison said:
Jake I think Phil is also referencing the confusion surrounding Arri and their current position of "upconverting" Alexa to UHD. You are correct Arri stated they wanted to avoid producing a mediocre 4K camera, but this upconverting solution appears perilously close to being that same mediocre solution they dreaded.

However the Arri 65 is another animal, and shows Arri is clearly taking higher resolutions (and larger sensors) very seriously.

Which I think is great!
Click to expand...
ARRI needs to be able to produce images, that can be easily intercut between Alexa and Alexa 65. Intercutting between 2K and 4K is problematic. Not as much between upscaled UHD and downscaled 4K. Like Christopher Nolan's Batman, where majority was shot on 35mm film, scanned at 4k, with a couple of scenes shot on IMAX camera and scanned at 6K. Still the difference was just breathtaking, even though the difference in scanned resolution was not that great. One word- MTF. Ok two- superior MTF. I think ARRI, for practical purposes is trying to minimize the difference between the two cameras as well so films like Batman will be possible again.
 
Open gate is much more then 2k resolution... Amira UHD and the new Alexa prores 4k support is coming as well, 1.2 uprez be damned. I think its an EXCELLENT way for them to not piss off the current owners by releasing a 4k camera that no one can upgrade to. They are much better off this way, give the XT and Amira a chance for people to make a return on them before pushing out new replacement options and annoying the user base! People would be screaming bloody murder if they push out a 4k camera while most people still are awaiting their Amiras (and lose the 4.5k non refundable deposits they have with Abel if they pull out)...

To address some points by others Red has no in camera sharpening. To say Alexa is sharper negates the fact is most likely has sharpening in camera unlike Red (not sure though personally, just a guess on my part)

Race to the bottom does suck, Arri can't win against BM, neither would Red...

and for those interested in trying the camera CSC (or Arrirentals I guess now with the rebranding) sent me the following:

Hi Brian,
Thank you for your email.
Rental rates have not been set yet and we expect to have systems available for rental as early as November.
Once they arrive we will invite anyone who is interested to test here at our facility.
Please let me know if you have any other questions.
All the best


So anyone including me can go check it out! This is nothing but good news, whether your invested in Red products, Arri products, or both. Tools are great for different things!


Patrick Tresch said:
Hello,

Please tell me, are you gonna shoot 65mm? I dont see the leader here. Just a funny camera like the F65 is or like the D20 was.

The good news is they are considering >2k résolution. Too bad they didn't manage to do it in the s35mm format.

Pat
Click to expand...
 
"Race to the bottom" =

Stop the revolution, we've gone far enough, I'm beginning to smell the street.
 
Sorry about the nature of the detour, guys. But I just don't think red has much to worry about.
 
I think much of this discussion is completely off-track with silly arguments. In my eyes there are so many good options out there with a variety of cameras that we can look at them more like we used to look at film stocks. Different aesthetics not better or worse. Each have their own unique sensibilities, advantages and disadvantages. As shooters we should appreciate this. This ridiculous argument over which cam is better is just soooooo old. I for one am very curious to see the alexa65 in action and am confident that the same high level of engineering and precision that has been the hallmark of arri for 100 years will produce amazingly great images. Other cameras including the dragon make great images too but to call one better than another just proves one owns ignorance. Every project needs to look at their own requirements and work backwards towards camera choice not the other way around. I was pretty impressed with the demo of the new varicam I saw at abel cine today and I think more choice is great. Red started a revolution that is just getting going and to see where it has led us and imagine where we are going is truly exciting.
 
I wish this forum was more about red users than red owners. Many making arguments here are people who have invested in equipment thinking that this somehow magically makes them an expert. Cut the crap because it just makes us collectively look bad and makes others not look at us seriously. How many times am I lumped together with this idiotic fanboyism. The hostility and lack of professionalism by many here is, and in many ways already has, ruined what was and could be an important portal for sharing info. and useful knowledge.
 
N_Villers said:
I think much of this discussion is completely off-track with silly arguments. In my eyes there are so many good options out there with a variety of cameras that we can look at them more like we used to look at film stocks. Different aesthetics not better or worse. Each have their own unique sensibilities, advantages and disadvantages. As shooters we should appreciate this. This ridiculous argument over which cam is better is just soooooo old. I for one am very curious to see the alexa65 in action and am confident that the same high level of engineering and precision that has been the hallmark of arri for 100 years will produce amazingly great images. Other cameras including the dragon make great images too but to call one better than another just proves one owns ignorance. Every project needs to look at their own requirements and work backwards towards camera choice not the other way around. I was pretty impressed with the demo of the new varicam I saw at abel cine today and I think more choice is great. Red started a revolution that is just getting going and to see where it has led us and imagine where we are going is truly exciting.
Click to expand...
Well said. I agree 100%.
 
N_Villers said:
I wish this forum was more about red users than red owners. Many making arguments here are people who have invested in equipment thinking that this somehow magically makes them an expert. Cut the crap because it just makes us collectively look bad and makes others not look at us seriously. How many times am I lumped together with this idiotic fanboyism. The hostility and lack of professionalism by many here is, and in many ways already has, ruined what was and could be an important portal for sharing info. and useful knowledge.
Click to expand...
I think healthy discourse is fine. That's what makes forums useful. We are all coming from different perspectives, various levels of experience. I for one have always been a fan of a collective knowledge base that strives to help one another. When things get personal or sidetracked it tends to veer off the track. I've been guilty of it myself. There's so much to learn, so much to discover about these tools and the artistry and craftsmanship that our peers are able to achieve with the tools that I find myself getting the most of these forums when that is the focus.
 
The "Versus" conversation is mostly interesting for the type of clientele/customer/shooter this Alexa65 is targeted at.

To give Arri some credit here, there was a gap for a proper 65mm digital cinema camera. Personally and throughout the history of cinema I feel having a digital 65mm system, just like my rather strong feelings for various other formats.

The bigger question in regards to productions aiming at a camera like this is say shooting 6K FF on Dragon with T1.4 Leica Summilux-C Primes against the Alexa65 and the glass Arri is providing. Panavision Series 70 glass to me should be "the ideal choice" for this camera, mostly at T2.

If anything the good news is that this camera more or less only validates Red's own desire for 6K acquisition, because a bit ago people were looking at it like it was an alien before they had the full picture.

Down to brass tacks. I don't know if 65mm is the format for every type of shoot, particularly with the exact workflow that the Alexa65 utilizes. But, I don't think there is one true format that rules them all. Heh. Well not totally. So I'm happy to see more options in the wicked game of camera manufacturer tennis. I'm concerned about optics and physical limits regards optics in terms of format to a certain degree, but that's secondary to the desire to have a larger format system as a medium.

It's a rad tool and more or less a specialty camera at the moment. This "Dragon VS Alexa65" is provocative, but largely wildly different budgets and targeted markets. Not to mention that Dragon is a smaller camera with a more friendly workflow.

So kudos in some ways. But, I'm highly critical of Arri in a few other ways like general business model, camera feature set, and ditching/bitching at 4K only to half ass it on their flagships. But hey, what do I know. I'm happy shooting with my Dragon in hand and I can make some really banging pictures with it.
 
I agree with Gunleik, Matt and company in that I would prefer RED to make a bigger 4:3 sensor rather than a 65mm-like sensor. Anamorphic is a much more exciting format than 65mm. Now that digital sensors are very mature, it makes no sense in my opinion for RED to bother imitating Arri.

And, sorry to say it, but some cameras are indeed better than others. I'm not naming names here, though. That would be off-topic.


(0:29)
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
Matt Granger's video report about Dragon "100fps 6k video... insane!" from PHOTOKINA, Cologne, 16.-21.09.2014
Click to expand...

The video is clearly dated because the narrator continues to speak aobut 16.5 stops of DR and as we know today, it is more likely 14-ish stops and about the same as the Alexa. Another example of marketing vs. reality and how it is really important not to get sucked into the hype, but to make level headed, hands on comparisons trying to avoid the inherent prejudice of owner operator scenarios.
 
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