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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon vs Alexa 65

Yes the lenses are slower but conversely you'd expect a sensor that is larger but still 6K to have physically larger photosites and thus be more sensitive compared to the 6K Dragon sensor so it may be a wash in terms of effective depth of field, you'll be able to work at a higher ASA and stop down if you want.

But I don't think of the two products as serving the same market or group of customers anyway.

Personally if Red does make a FF35 sensor, I wish they'd keep it to 6K and perhaps improve the sensitivity instead...
 
Joe,

Panavision already make some f2.8 zoom lenses to cover but Joe asks a very pertinent question. Originally 65mm offered a giant negative for an amazing and unparalleled fine grain print. Most modern sensors well exposed will be giving you a very clean image and there is no longer any analogue generation loss. DOF is the other difference but not convinced this will be a win. A lot of full frame 5D footage shot WFO looks way too mushy for longer cuts typical of drama. But seeing is believing and I am looking forward to seeing real world results from the camera
 
Also remember that a 50mm is wider on 65mm and the DOF is much more narrow at that field of view so going 2.8 will be hard to control. The best thing about 65mm is in my opinion the wide lenses. The DOF and field of view on a 35mm is really unique.
 
Tom Gleeson said:
Joe,

Panavision already make some f2.8 zoom lenses to cover but Joe asks a very pertinent question. Originally 65mm offered a giant negative for an amazing and unparalleled fine grain print. Most modern sensors well exposed will be giving you a very clean image and there is no longer any analogue generation loss. DOF is the other difference but not convinced this will be a win. A lot of full frame 5D footage shot WFO looks way too mushy for longer cuts typical of drama. But seeing is believing and I am looking forward to seeing real world results from the camera
Click to expand...

The muchiness also comes from the fact that it's difficult to make a lens preform well at WFO this alexa 65 gives you about twice the dof so you can close down and still get the dof and a larger sensor also demands less precision from the lens so that is also a gain. So basically it gives you less noise, beter lens sharpness/resolution and more dof and the whole large format feel... I dont know I shot anamorphic for pretty much one reason and that is the 2x factor of the sensor size is width usually shoot them at f6.5 a more dof than that is not what I'm after but the large format makes a difference... Imagine that Alexa with anamorphic... it would basically give you a canvas from over 100mm virtual sensor in width.... that would without doubt be quite an astonishing picture.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Yes the lenses are slower but conversely you'd expect a sensor that is larger but still 6K to have physically larger photosites and thus be more sensitive compared to the 6K Dragon sensor so it may be a wash in terms of effective depth of field, you'll be able to work at a higher ASA and stop down if you want.

But I don't think of the two products as serving the same market or group of customers anyway.

Personally if Red does make a FF35 sensor, I wish they'd keep it to 6K and perhaps improve the sensitivity instead...
Click to expand...

Let's hope so. I think bigger pixels should be the focus now. ALEXA XT and 65 pixels are a little less than twice the size of DRAGON pixels. This matters for sensitivity, as we've seen for years with still camera manufacturers making the lower megapixel models their flagship - Nikon D4, Canon 1D X, etc. RED could also go down the path of doing more to the image in the camera. More analog gain plus noise reduction tuned to each sensor could compensate for the lower native sensitivity of smaller pixels. There are obviously tradeoffs with any of these choices.

There are also limits to what can be done in the size of the body RED has chosen. Back in 2013 Jim mentioned at one point that there was more performance to get out of the DRAGON sensor than the current body allowed because of space limitations - so it'd be interesting to see a larger body version that was not only basically silent, but also was not limited in performance in any way by having to fit the electronics inside a tiny body.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Personally if Red does make a FF35 sensor, I wish they'd keep it to 6K and perhaps improve the sensitivity instead...
Click to expand...

I really hope so... Maybe not exactly 6k... But not 5micron small pixels..

... What would really work for me is if super 35 is 4k (rather than 5k at the moment)...then vista would fall just about 6.5k...
 
A small reminder.

Keep threads on track and on topic or your posts will be deleted.

nice discussion gentlemen.

Please continue.

Battistella
 
This is a great camera however it is not an owner/operator camera Imo.

From what I'm hearing it will be for rent only (?). Hence this will be used on big end cinema productions featuring superheroes , giant robots & extraterrestrial threats. The sort of films that have helped created hollywoods worst season since the GFC.

So the big question for me.... isn't if this is a great camera ( which it is). But will it be used in the booming field of television production ?
 
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We are little too emotional when you mention the competition, but must admit that ARRI always has a well-rounded accessories and workflow:

ARRI ALEXA 65 with Hasselblad 65mm optics (ready-made solutions for large sensor) + ARRI Rental Vault S (raw material station).

?
 
Salem Kapic said:
We are little too emotional when you mention the competition, but must admit that ARRI always has a well-rounded accessories and workflow:

ARRI ALEXA 65 with Hasselblad 65mm optics (ready-made solutions for large sensor) + ARRI Rental Vault S (raw material station).

?
Click to expand...

Its a RENTAL ONLY camera.if RED would want few special rental only cameras like this believe me they can create 65mm sensor easily.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Yes the lenses are slower but conversely you'd expect a sensor that is larger but still 6K to have physically larger photosites and thus be more sensitive compared to the 6K Dragon sensor so it may be a wash in terms of effective depth of field, you'll be able to work at a higher ASA and stop down if you want.

But I don't think of the two products as serving the same market or group of customers anyway.

Personally if Red does make a FF35 sensor, I wish they'd keep it to 6K and perhaps improve the sensitivity instead...
Click to expand...

As usual, wise men (and women) agree with David, and I'd like to think of myself as wise, so… :-)
 
Hm... What makes a sensor "new".
(Not arguing here, just wondering)

I'd say a sensor was new if the AD was new, even if the silicone is the same...
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
Its a RENTAL ONLY camera.if RED would want few special rental only cameras like this believe me they can create 65mm sensor easily.
Click to expand...

Easily... But not cheaply. A single 65mm sensor can cost up to 10.000$ depending on volume, sensor complixity, custom design etc etc
Rental only is a wise decision by ARRI.
 
Now that the ”ARRI A3X CMOS Camera” CAN DO 6K, JUST LIKE THE “Epic Red Dragon Camera” they are both on par with each other we can drop some of the name calling, 65 mm, and start anew with what each camera “CAN-DO”. Things like Slow-Motion, HDRx, R3D Files that are not bake-in, fly a small or big helicopter in S3D, a reasonable weight for a stedicam operator, those and others are not here for the ARRI A3X CMOS Camera but have been around for the Epic Red Dragon Camera for a while now. The camera grew exponentially in sensor size, as well as in physical size, it’s a MONSTER.

However it would be wise to refer to the cameras by the number of Pixels and what they can-do, ARRI A3X CMOS Camera, “6560 x 3102” vs. the Red Dragon” “6144 x 3160” Not by the Arri 65, that’s a misnomer that red also used in their narrative but not their marketing department, I think to remember Red saying their camera was EQUIVALENT to 65mm a long while back. That’s for the marketing Departments. But not at four times the sensor size, THAT’S A BIG DIFFERENCE. http://nofilmschool.com/2014/09/arri-reveals-6k-65mm-cinema-camera-alexa-65 “There have been rumors floating around about ARRI developing a 6K 65mm digital cinema camera for some time. The mysterious camera finally made its official debut at this year's Cinec event. Introducing the ARRI ALEXA 65.” No Film School.

So the 65 mm nomenclature is just marketing on the part of Arri. The Red Dragon is, and has been for a while a 65 Camera, but not that much marketing of that feature. Arri is trying to justify its four times the sensor size with its 65 mm description. Now we all know that Red will not stand still for Arri CATCHING UP to Red with 6K, without any other benefits, like the ones mentioned above is just more hype, that’s not to say they don’t have a great camera, they-do but at what expense with its 60 mm Image Circle limited frames per second, and the list goes on. But the Arri marketing department is really doing a “Good Job”, but that is not what films are shoot on. For example, with Red you can shoot film at one setting and stills at the same time with HDRx, now show me that Arri can do that when they’re limited to 24 or 25 fps. Two different “Business Models” and one cost more money than the other.

Humberto Rivera
 
Humberto Rivera said:
Now that the ”ARRI A3X CMOS Camera” CAN DO 6K, JUST LIKE THE “Epic Red Dragon Camera” they are both on par with each other we can drop some of the name calling, 65 mm, and start anew with what each camera “CAN-DO”. Things like Slow-Motion, HDRx, R3D Files that are not bake-in, fly a small or big helicopter in S3D, a reasonable weight for a stedicam operator, those and others are not here for the ARRI A3X CMOS Camera but have been around for the Epic Red Dragon Camera for a while now. The camera grew exponentially in sensor size, as well as in physical size, it’s a MONSTER.

However it would be wise to refer to the cameras by the number of Pixels and what they can-do, ARRI A3X CMOS Camera, “6560 x 3102” vs. the Red Dragon” “6144 x 3160” Not by the Arri 65, that’s a misnomer that red also used in their narrative but not their marketing department, I think to remember Red saying their camera was EQUIVALENT to 65mm a long while back. That’s for the marketing Departments. But not at four times the sensor size, THAT’S A BIG DIFFERENCE. http://nofilmschool.com/2014/09/arri-reveals-6k-65mm-cinema-camera-alexa-65 “There have been rumors floating around about ARRI developing a 6K 65mm digital cinema camera for some time. The mysterious camera finally made its official debut at this year's Cinec event. Introducing the ARRI ALEXA 65.” No Film School.

So the 65 mm nomenclature is just marketing on the part of Arri. The Red Dragon is, and has been for a while a 65 Camera, but not that much marketing of that feature. Arri is trying to justify its four times the sensor size with its 65 mm description. Now we all know that Red will not stand still for Arri CATCHING UP to Red with 6K, without any other benefits, like the ones mentioned above is just more hype, that’s not to say they don’t have a great camera, they-do but at what expense with its 60 mm Image Circle limited frames per second, and the list goes on. But the Arri marketing department is really doing a “Good Job”, but that is not what films are shoot on. For example, with Red you can shoot film at one setting and stills at the same time with HDRx, now show me that Arri can do that when they’re limited to 24 or 25 fps. Two different “Business Models” and one cost more money than the other.

Humberto Rivera
Click to expand...

:confused5:

Red Dragon is a 35mm camera.
 
Over time arri has made incredible products that are rental only, for many reasons, Mostly because they are the R&D products into better for sale products. They will never give up on the S35 crowd, especially since they still support an HD crowd. There will indeed be a an S35 4k version,. Arri thinks about its different traditional Markets, where the user demand is high. There are more Docu and TV shooters than there are Movie guys, 65mm arri raw is not for them. we'll wait to see.
 
“Red Dragon is a 35mm camera.” Dunkan Wolf! - Duncan if the “ARRI A3X CMOS Camera” (“6560 x 3102”) vs. the “Red Dragon” “6144 x 3160”. Then it should be Named the Arri 35 which is not, the “Red Epic Dragon Camera” is just named that.

Humberto Rivera
 
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