Dragon Upgrade Predictions for Scarlet-X

[Jesper Sichlau]

5K 25p , 4K HDR@25p, 2K 120fps. thats circa my hopes.. cos then i wont quite have to face paying the difference of upgrading to an epic...

+1 Perhaps with the addition of 6K at 12 fps.

 

[Maik Müller]

I think RED is giving us at least full motion with the same sensor-size that we do have now. I think it would be a bit strange to get a higher crop-factor with the new sensor. So, that might be 4.5k or 5k (i'm too lazy to do the math) with the framerate we have now at 4k. 6k stills are safe i think, but i hope for a more complete stills-mode then, the stuttering preview that we have now is not really fun to look at and to focus with. BTW, i don't understand why AF can't be enabled during recording in 5k. Enough about that, i still like shooting stills with Scarlet and its full sensor, but it's a mixed experience.

I expect a similar gap between EPIC and Scarlet like we have it now but i hope for 6k-motion.

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

+1 Perhaps with the addition of 6K at 12 fps.

Why would I buy a Dragon sensor go through all the effort of dishing out possibly over $8,000 and get a crippled 6K camera.

What's the point?

It would keep the divide much like today, Epic is currently 5K and Scarlet 4K.

RED can't really sell 6K as a feature. When do you use 5K on a Scarlet-X....never..maybe once

I'd rather keep my MX sensor and just get new chips installed to at least make it a functional 5K camera with high frame rates at 4K then maybe Late 2013 get a Sensor Upgrade. Splitting it would be convenient for me but not sure how it'd pan out for Red.

Say if the Scarlet ends up doing 6k 30fps then no need to split it, at that point though the New Scarlet may cannibalize Epic rentals. There's a pretty big gap between Epic and Scarlet how will dragon change the distance?

It's gonna be interesting to see how this all pans out.

If they're putting a new sensor I'd like the benefit of using it's new resolution offering, 12fps would be a waste of great new technology.

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

When do you use 5K on a Scarlet-X....never..maybe once

Used it quite a bit actually. Better for timelapse.

 

[Carlos Garcia]

What if the path for Scarlett was to upgrade to Epic? (of course paying the price, whichever that might be) Some sort of a red one to epic situation. What makes me think of this option is the fact that Scarlet would need a serious rehousing to get any upgrade, a rehousing that would, hardware wise, maybe have her become very close to Epic. This will be a serious investment in terms of money for the buyer, and in terms logistics for the manufacturer. So maybe for X amount of money there will be a direct route to the top, as a second option or something.

Also, if Scarlet were to go 5k 24 fps the gap between the two cameras would narrow somewhat, at least for regular speed jobs: a lot of Epic owners will be shooting 5k 24 fps because of lens covering issues (and it would still be an amazing upgrade, in terms of latitude, sensitivity, color rendition, etc). And so would Scarlett...

Far fetched and hard to tell at this point, just something that popped in my head as a possibility...

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

I bet red will announce their new electronic lenses we saw so long ago around the time the dragon upgrades start....this would solve many issues w/ coverage

 

[Roger Johansen]

So the question is: should you wait to buy a Scarlet with a 6k Dragon and at what price?? Will RED keep the current pricing and include a Dragon on all Scarlets going forward?? I really want to stop renting and get a Scarlet but SHOULD I WAIT?? I've always went by the theory DONT WAIT because there is always an upgrade and new model in the future.

 

[jamesbridges]

I think a "Scarlet Dragon" sensor will offer double the resolution, besides a cleaner sensor. If it were $6K it would still be a value. I imgine the cost would be around $3-4K. I would like to see 48fps at 4K and 24fps at 5K.

 

[Bob Gundu]

So the question is: should you wait to buy a Scarlet with a 6k Dragon and at what price?? Will RED keep the current pricing and include a Dragon on all Scarlets going forward?? I really want to stop renting and get a Scarlet but SHOULD I WAIT?? I've always went by the theory DONT WAIT because there is always an upgrade and new model in the future.

Who knows how long the update could take for existing Scarlet owners. First dibs are for the Epic owners. So, in my opinion, do what makes sense today.

 

[jamesbridges]

So the question is: should you wait to buy a Scarlet with a 6k Dragon and at what price?? Will RED keep the current pricing and include a Dragon on all Scarlets going forward?? I really want to stop renting and get a Scarlet but SHOULD I WAIT?? I've always went by the theory DONT WAIT because there is always an upgrade and new model in the future.

Roger, your question is valid, but you need to ask yourself if you can make money with the camera now. I have an external recorder attached to my Scarlet, it is full raster out now, so it goes out more ofter, thus making me $$$.
Figure out your business model. Can you pay the camera off in a timely manner that suits you?
Some of the best features of any RED camera is the upgrade path, free firmware and an easier workflow.
Fortunately the Scarlet has less of a financial risk for me and allowed my company to purchase one to get into the "game".
As more clients as for it the sooner I pay it off (obviously) and migrate to an Epic.

 

[Trevor Meeks]

RED can't really sell 6K as a feature. When do you use 5K on a Scarlet-X....never..maybe once

If you're outputting to 4K it's particularly useful, so looking forward, 5K on Scarlet is necessary. 6K... Cool, you don't have to use it, but it's there if you want it. Sure would be nice to have the option for 6K 24fps 6:1 or something...

 

[Joel Mielle]

Any more than $4K and it would not be worth upgrading. With so many new affordable 4K models coming out on the market soon, $10K would just be over the top and I don't see it happening in that price range. $10K is not an upgrade, it's a new camera.
My predictions will be $3-$5K, and still I'd have to think hard whether it's worthwhile. How much more income will it create for me. How much slow motion and how much night shooting will I be using. Maybe 5%? If it can shoot 5K at 24 frames on a Scarlet, then it's worth a little more, but I don't see that happening. Personally, I prefer to spend it on fast glass.

 

[Zul Y]

Wish List:

6K - 12fps
5K - 25fps
4K - 30fps
2K - 60fps

Upgrade price: $8000-$10,000

I really like the idea of a "board only" upgrade. Hope they can do it!

 

[drew sandoval]

So... the Scarlet X is leftover sensors from the Epic, is that going to be how Dragon works? Will Red have to move through a bunch of new Dragon sensors, and install the ones that aren't up to spec in Scarlets, or will Red put brand new Dragon sensors in the Scarlet?

If it is a full blown Dragon sensor, then Red will have to hobble it, like Canon does with there cameras right?

If they are sensors that aren't quite up to snuff, then Red might not even know what the specs are until it has a sizable load of lessor sensors, and then Red will have to test to see what can be accomplished with them.

Has anything been said about this yet?

 

[Maik Müller]

MX-sensors are the same, not leftovers, i don't think this will change with Dragon. The "leftover" parts are more to search on electronics, think cpus with disabled cores or less mhz, just like every GPU/CPU-manufacturer does it. Thats great for us, great for RED and generally good economy.

I think the problematic parts of finalizing specs for a Scarlet upgrade are not technical, it's just about making business decisions. RED wants to give us the best for the money but also has to protect EPIC-X, the cancellation of EPIC-S35 in the past is there for a (understandable) reason. There is also the R1MX, which might disappear when the Dragon lands, that would give a little more room for Scarlet-X. They do also know that paying more than $6k for a upgrade of a brain that costs less than $10k is a totally different thing. The deal will not look as great as the upgrade for EPIC. I'm sure RED is also aware of our dreams/requests we have posted multiple times here.

I'm happy that they clearly said there will be a upgrade, they took the challenge. I'm sure they will do whatever they can to make it a good deal, its just not that easy for Scarlet.

A few ideas:
1.) more than one upgrade path:
a - just the sensor with whatever the current chipset can do, $6k
b - new sensor + new chipset, with 25-30fps @ 5k, $10k
2.) upgrade-path to EPIC-X (~$25k-$28k???)
3.) new model between Scarlet-X and EPIC-X, think EPIC-S with 25-30fps @ 6k, ~$10k-$15k
4.) nr3 but limited to Scarlet-X orders before date xx/xx/xx
5.) just a new Scarlet-X-brain with loyality-rebate for existing Scarlet-Users (if a usable upgrade would cost nearly $10k and makes upgrading a bit senseless)

Any more ideas?

RED will come up with something better anyway, but the guessing game is fun.

 

[Lliam Worthington]

Personally, the higher res is the lest of my priorities and I see this as a pretty crucial epic differential for RED - like "HIGH" frame rates.

* If Dragon can give my Scarlet a couple more stops or DR. That's huge.
* Better low light - fantastic.
* Reasonably improved frame rates to still respect the Epic differential...

Perfect. I'm sold.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Wish List:

6K - 12fps
5K - 25fps
4K - 30fps
2K - 60fps

Upgrade price: $8000-$10,000

I really like the idea of a "board only" upgrade. Hope they can do it!

You would pay 8-10K for just that kind of upgrade? I wouldn't even consider it to be honest. This isn't even having a bad attitude but at what point is the Scarlet just cost to much for what it is? I mean there are so many cameras that will come out and offer 4K for around what your paying now, the idea of paying more than 6 grand to me, even with the DR and maybe somewhat improved frame rates just doesn't show enough value for me to upgrade that on a Scarlet. I thought the whole idea was to not buy another camera...which in this case you practically would be anyways.

At the 8-10K price range i'd honestly expect something along the lines of this in a frame rates boost

6K-24
5K-48
4K-60
3K-120
2K-200

You aren't cannibalizing the camera the Epic market here, but if the sensor only on the Epic without new boards is 6 thousand, and your fixing boards to bring the Scarlet up to speed, you should get additional frame rates as well, otherwise the modularity thing goes out the window. It will be in a totally different league still. I personally believe for the price of the scarlet we should have 5K 24 fps... It's a great deal for what it is don't get me wrong, I just think they're going to have to be careful with there prices going forth, they might be the head of the pack from here on out, but i've already seen promising gear from other companies that have me interested just because of how much, because of RED's influence they want to do near or the same. At this point I'd just get an Epic if it's more than 6 grand. The MX sensor is good enough for the most part, the people I work with on the Scarlet already are happy with it, and having to pay essentially for another body to get a DR and ISO improvement with maybe a slight FPS boost, doesn't justify it for me.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Personally, the higher res is the lest of my priorities and I see this as a pretty crucial epic differential for RED - like "HIGH" frame rates.

* If Dragon can give my Scarlet a couple more stops or DR. That's huge.
* Better low light - fantastic.
* Reasonably improved frame rates to still respect the Epic differential...

Perfect. I'm sold.

I agree 100%. My gut tells me Scarlet will be 6k stills and 5k motion which would suit me just fine...

 

[Maik Müller]

5k motion / 6k stills is realistic i think, but keep in mind there is the R1MX. The future of it is unknown, will it get a Dragon (later?), will it stay or disappear?

Stills, stills, stills... hmmm, is the still-mode something that is still being developed or is it dropped? I don't think its on RED's priority-list anymore. It would be for Scarlet-X only, EPIC doesn't need it that much, it can do the real DMSC-magic at 5k. The current implementation of 5k in Scarlet is already usable, but it isn't what DSMC is about and i wouldn't consider it as full replacement for a DSLR. Don't misunderstand me, i use it more often than i thought and i like the results, but a few things are missed. For a pure still-mode it isn't complete yet.

Maybe thats going into the consideration too, which would scream for 6k motion. Hehehe.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

5k motion / 6k stills is realistic i think, but keep in mind there is the R1MX. The future of it is unknown, will it get a Dragon (later?), will it stay or disappear?

I'm pretty sure I read here that there will not be R1MX upgrades to Dragon. RED offered a very generous upgrade to Epic for R1 owners. I don't think it's fair for anyone to expect more than that.