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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon Update

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Phil Holland said:
Yes. Generally speaking traditional anamorphic lenses are designed to cover S35 4-perf Full Aperture, which is why we really won't see coverage issues. Red Epic Dragon is 15.8mm tall, closer to Academy's 16mm. I've seen folks shoot S35 Full and Academy with anamorphics at this point. I don't think the moderate loss in height is going to greatly decrease anamorphic's appeal or actual use however.

Some folks desire a taller sensor for this reason, but it would increase the cost and yield on manufacturing for the most part and at this point most folks capture in Full, 2:1, HD, and WS aspect ratios and you still have better ANA performance on Dragon compared to Mysterium. You get into a battle of how tall and how wide you want the sensor to be at some point.

Based on my initial tests and research on lens coverage I'm feeling more and more like 6K was the right target resolution when it comes to projected image circles. More testing and observations will be needed though just so everybody's bases are covered.

And believe me, I'm interested! I'm about to drop coin on cinema primes.
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Good stuff Phil. My money's on Xenar III's :)
 
Phil Holland said:
Yes. Generally speaking traditional anamorphic lenses are designed to cover S35 4-perf Full Aperture, which is why we really won't see coverage issues. Red Epic Dragon is 15.8mm tall, closer to Academy's 16mm. I've seen folks shoot S35 Full and Academy with anamorphics at this point. I don't think the moderate loss in height is going to greatly decrease anamorphic's appeal or actual use however.

Some folks desire a taller sensor for this reason, but it would increase the cost and yield on manufacturing for the most part and at this point most folks capture in Full, 2:1, HD, and WS aspect ratios and you still have better ANA performance on Dragon compared to Mysterium. You get into a battle of how tall and how wide you want the sensor to be at some point.

Based on my initial tests and research on lens coverage I'm feeling more and more like 6K was the right target resolution when it comes to projected image circles. More testing and observations will be needed though just so everybody's bases are covered.

And believe me, I'm interested! I'm about to drop coin on cinema primes.
Click to expand...

Not so Phil...

Standard anamorphic process does NOT utilize the Super 35 gate area. In a 35mm film camera, the aperture standard for anamorphic is 22mm x 18.59mm.

The Dragon sensor cropped to 1.2:1 for 6K anamorphic would have dimensions of 18.96mm x 15.8mm... So that's still a crop factor of 15%... Alexa with a 4:3 sensor cropped to a 1.2:1 aspect ratio for anamorphic extraction would yield 21.38mm x 17.82mm sensor size which is MUCH closer to the academy standard, but at 2/3 the resolution...

Still, I'm not mad about the slightly smaller aperture size of 6KANA mode on the dragon, it REALLY helps some of the older anamorphics deal with their lack of edge performance. At no loss for resolution, my favorite Kowas will continue to look stellar.

Can't effen wait!
 
Christopher Probst said:
Not so Phil...
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We're essentially saying the same thing.

That's why I mentioned the 4-perf Full Ap up there and what format anamorphics are designed for. 18.6mm is the maximum height available at 4-perf Full Ap, 16mm is the max height for Academy. I've seen folks shoot and frame Academy negative size with anamorphics, which is somewhat strange, but I imagine provides safety and framing flexibility.

I'm just going on what I've scanned over the years. The stuff I've shot on PV anamorphics has been S35 Full however.

I agree that the smaller size is not really a huge issue though for anamorphic shooters.
 
Certainly with the advent of DI post processes (and therefore less and less true contact-printed anamorphic prints being created) it opened up the possibility of shooting a Super 35-centered aperture and extracting the 1.2:1 aspect ratio out of that area. It still wouldn't give you any more height than what is available on the negative and above I listed the most real estate possible in the camera gate. The actual projection area of an anamorphic release print is slightly smaller at 20.96mm x 17.53mm... It's STILL significantly more than 6K ANA mode, but almost spot-on with Alexa 4:3 sensor size.

16mm tall is the max aperture height for standard academy spherical photography... (FULL Super 35 gate height is 18.67mm) Now, the anamorphic standard was much taller and at one point didn't even leave much space for splices and gluing, which led to 2 significant adjustments to the standard in the 1970s and then again in the early 90s... So I'm not sure who would frame a 16mm tall anamorphic gate size or why, as the Academy and SMPTE dictate the gate dimensions and projection standards... You'd basically end up with all of this extra headroom unaccounted for on your prints.

Either way, I personally like the sensor height of the Dragon for anamorphic... Sure 6K will be stretching many spherical lenses and it may become a little bit of a juggling act jumping down to 5.5K (if that format comes about or user-defined aspect ratios become an option) for shots that start to vignette at full 6K... However, there are also many options now coming out that will cover the full frame as well, so it's equally exciting as well. Look at those CP2 zooms Zeiss debuted at NAB for example.
 
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Christopher Probst said:
Either way, I personally like the sensor height of the Dragon for anamorphic... Sure 6K will be stretching many lenses and it may become a little bit of a juggling act jumping down to 5.5K (if that format comes about or user-defined aspect ratios become an option) for shots that start to vignette at full 6K... However, there are also many options now coming out that will cover the full frame as well, so it's equally exciting as well. Look at those CP2 zooms Zeiss debuted at NAB for example.
Click to expand...

I'm essentially making a purchase decision on the Schneider Cine-Xenar III primes at the moment. I've tested them a bit and need to add some cinema glass to my arsenal. I really like these lenses and they feel right for most of what I shoot. I have a full range of glass that currently covers 6K Full from the FF35 still world I've adapted for cine use, so in some ways I feel safe in terms of shooting at 6K Full.

I'll likely be getting some full frame cinema primes down the line. Perhaps I shouldn't be so indecisive and go with my gut. It's a fairly major purchase so I'm juggling logistics, ROI, and potential complications.

Been swimming for a while, but the new water of stepping up my "game" a bit is certainly very deep.
 
I hear ya, I did the same too recently... after running our lens tests at Camtec profiling all of their inventory, I decided that I would go after a set of RPPs and bought a full set locally. I will only use them on my personal projects or if the budget is super tight. If production has the funds, I'll opt to go with something like Master Primes and keep my set as minty as possible. If you can find a used set in pristine condition, there really isn't any better bargain out there vs. performance.

I'm actually considering fleshing out my set with 2 of the newer Sony primes.. they have a 20mm and a 135mm that is "similar" in look and design as the RPP and may compliment the set, though I haven't had one in my hands nor been able to compare them. Camtec had a set of the Schneiders in house and they seemed very nice indeed. But I haven't had a chance to shoot them for our lens profile tests yet.

Back on the Dragon topic, do you know the image circles of the Xenar IIIs? I really want to compile a detailed list of THAT particular attribute across all sets and manufacturers... It's now at the top of my to-do list!
 
Christopher Probst said:
I hear ya, I did the same too recently... after running our lens tests at Camtec profiling all of their inventory, I decided that I would go after a set of RPPs and bought a full set locally. I will only use them on my personal projects or if the budget is super tight. If production has the funds, I'll opt to go with something like Master Primes and keep my set as minty as possible. If you can find a used set in pristine condition, there really isn't any better bargain out there vs. performance.

I'm actually considering fleshing out my set with 2 of the newer Sony primes.. they have a 20mm and a 135mm that is "similar" in look and design as the RPP and may compliment the set, though I haven't had one in my hands nor been able to compare them. Camtec had a set of the Schneiders in house and they seemed very nice indeed. But I haven't had a chance to shoot them for our lens profile tests yet.

Back on the Dragon topic, do you know the image circles of the Xenar IIIs? I really want to compile a detailed list of THAT particular attribute across all sets and manufacturers... It's now at the top of my to-do list!
Click to expand...


I know "some numbers", but when we test everything out we'll test them all at once to get the hard numbers. One ruler = a stable control. Rather than different ways of measuring them causing weird data.

I totally agree on used Red Pro Primes likely being the cinema glass deal of the year. I'll eventually have two prime sets and might go that route.

Gotta look at those new Sony primes. Everybody seems to have good things to say about them. Build-wise they look decent.
 
Duncan Drysdale said:
Until 8k and 70mm sensors come along ofcourse.. :D
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They would be useless bloat, way beyond human vision at comfortable seating distances. As it is I would much prefer Dragon be 5K - or at least have the same field of view at 5K that Epic does now 6K is data and processing overhead for little or no return. What human eyes can't see you just don't need. Now maybe more pixels is a way of keeping the noise floor down, OK then, but anyone who thinks they need even 6K resolution is thinking only in more is more terms, not in practical client reality terms.
 
Ken Robings said:
"and 6K is too much resolution"
too much is never enough
Ken Robings
digitaloptik.net
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Never enough for what? If you can't see more resolution with human vision, and no modern lenses even Cookes can resolve more than 5k, what do you need all those extra pixels for? How are they helping you make good pictures?

Dragon has better color and better dynamic range, so we are excited about it, and will simply put up with what amounts to excessive resolution, that will likely add to our existing data bloat and processing issues with 5K. If they had a 4K Dragon, with a nice big field of view like Epic's 5K and just better color and light performance, we'd much rather have that, as it would much better meet the needs and issues of our real projects and clients.
 
Ken Robings said:
"and 6K is too much resolution"
too much is never enough
Click to expand...

Robert Ruffo New said:
Never enough for what? How are they helping you make good pictures?
Click to expand...

Off the top of my head this fine warm summer evening:

- Supersampling.
- Re-framing, cropping, and level horizon flexibility.
- Expanded and improved performance on every lens.
- Shooting higher quality/higher resolving "wides".
- VFX shoots, more resolution on tough keying situations.
- VFX element shoots.
- Timelapse
- Printing and extracting stills from motion.

4K digital projection and displays with a proper delivery format can see a lot. It's going to help having more going into this battle.
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
They would be useless bloat, way beyond human vision at comfortable seating distances. As it is I would much prefer Dragon be 5K - or at least have the same field of view at 5K that Epic does now 6K is data and processing overhead for little or no return. What human eyes can't see you just don't need. Now maybe more pixels is a way of keeping the noise floor down, OK then, but anyone who thinks they need even 6K resolution is thinking only in more is more terms, not in practical client reality terms.
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree. While it is true that you do not need more to watch clips on YouTube or on the telly, but that doesn't mean you can not benefit significantly from 6k or 8k on a large screen. The thruth is that 6k acquisition is bare minimum for clean 4k output. Large screen productions can certainly benefit from larger pixel count.

Remember, this is Beyer sensor and Nyquist frequency for red and blue channels are just 1250 lp per picture width and about 650 line pairs per picture width.
Even my old eyes can resolve more at any reasonable viewing angle. Human eye acuity is quite high and it will be a while before digital sensors can match it.

Anyway, here are some 8k samples: http://4k.com.au/8k/ They make very clean downsample to 4k. I will take more any time :)
 
Pawel Achtel said:
I respectfully disagree. While it is true that you do not need more to watch clips on YouTube or on the telly, but that doesn't mean you can not benefit significantly from 6k or 8k on a large screen. The thruth is that 6k acquisition is bare minimum for clean 4k output. Large screen productions can certainly benefit from larger pixel count.

Remember, this is Beyer sensor and Nyquist frequency for red and blue channels are just 1250 lp per picture width and about 650 line pairs per picture width.
Even my old eyes can resolve more at any reasonable viewing angle. Human eye acuity is quite high and it will be a while before digital sensors can match it.

Anyway, here are some 8k samples: http://4k.com.au/8k/ They make very clean downsample to 4k. I will take more any time :)
Click to expand...

What did you shoot that on? Unbelievably sharp and lifelike... congrats on your award btw.
 
Price point

Price point

Jarred Land said:
It is probably about time for an update.

Dragon is coming along well.. Graeme is working his magic and getting some incredible new color science buttoned up for when we are ready. REDCINE-X with Dragon support is ready. The Dragon camera firmware is complete. The Sensors and ASICs are performing like champs, its all down to the bottom end noise that was found in the power supplies, which have been redesigned and we should see those come in from manufacturing in a couple weeks.

The slice of production line is back from NAB and we are stocking up on all the mechanicals, sensors and ASICs so we can hit the ground running to do the upgrades when everything comes together.

I know everyone is eager and waiting.. thank you for your patience.

We have been doing lens coverage test on the Dragon while we are waiting.. and lens coverage is surprisingly good so far.. Hopefully I can grab Brook Evin and Phil one of these days soon with a van full of glass so they can put together some sort of master Dragon-Lens-matrix. The specs and assumptions of coverage don't always match real life, so nothing is better than getting the actual lenses and putting them on the camera and taking a look.
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Hey Jarred

I've obviously signed up for the upgrade, from an M, ordering through RED. My camera was eligible. I believe 100%. Every time I use the camera, my investment is justified through the breath-taking images off your camera. That said, my Bomb Rep said don't send money in yet. Reading between the lines, if power supplies need to be re-designed, etc, are we going to see another increase in price or have these modifications already been built into the cost as advertised on the site?

And all those cameras being given the old 1-2 make-over at NAB? Was that just RED marketing or do those puppies have to be overhauled again due the power changes.

Love what you do.

Brett
 
Phil Holland said:
I know "some numbers", but when we test everything out we'll test them all at once to get the hard numbers. One ruler = a stable control. Rather than different ways of measuring them causing weird data.

I totally agree on used Red Pro Primes likely being the cinema glass deal of the year. I'll eventually have two prime sets and might go that route.

Gotta look at those new Sony primes. Everybody seems to have good things to say about them. Build-wise they look decent.
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The Sony's are ok but feel like they might break when you hold them, that is if we are talking about the primes.

Yeah, The Red Pro Primes stay tight with me, I sleep right next to them...

Can't wait to see the full lens tests that are coming. Thanks again Phil.

- Paul.
 
Phil Holland said:
Off the top of my head this fine warm summer evening:

- Supersampling.
- Re-framing, cropping, and level horizon flexibility.
- Expanded and improved performance on every lens.
- Shooting higher quality/higher resolving "wides".
- VFX shoots, more resolution on tough keying situations.
- VFX element shoots.
- Timelapse
- Printing and extracting stills from motion.

4K digital projection and displays with a proper delivery format can see a lot. It's going to help having more going into this battle.
Click to expand...

Great points as always Phil!
For the work I'm currently shooting on my the best things Dragon offer is higher dynamic range. Better colors etc sounds very interesting even though we haven't seen anything about it yet and higher resolution is always exciting. However I shot so much slow motion on my Epic so I must say what I miss the "most" is simply higher resolutions around 200-300fps. I'm sure those will be bumped a few years from now into even higher resolutions but for now I'm often living in 2k or 3k land which always hurts a bit.

/Andreas
 
We can't be talking the same new Sony Primes can we? I agree the old sony plastic ones felt like fischer price toys compared to the new ones I checked out at NAB.


Paul Ellington said:
The Sony's are ok but feel like they might break when you hold them, that is if we are talking about the primes.

Yeah, The Red Pro Primes stay tight with me, I sleep right next to them...

Can't wait to see the full lens tests that are coming. Thanks again Phil.

- Paul.
Click to expand...
 
Certainly not the original Sony lenses... I'll of course check them out personally before buying any. I think there are some to be seen in LA at either Band Pro or Abel...
 
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