Dragon uncaged...

[Eryc Tramonn]

I'm not a coder but AFAIK an updated plug-in should be all that's needed. Hopefully by now RED and the major NLE/DI/etc vendors have done enough of these revisions that it will be a relatively fast and painless process. If not, somebody's got some 'splainin' to do ;-) (oblique reference to the fact that RED Studios Hollywood was once the soundstage where "I Love Lucy" was shot).

Cheers - #19

No 'splainin' necessary, Desilu.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Rank resolution where ye will, I'd wager its in most people's top 5.

If your point is that in the current distribution and display environment the resolution box is already checked by the MX and then some - OK.

IMO better S/N ratio is the holy grail of digital sensor systems, so if the Dragon can add 10db or more vs MX it's worth the cost right there.

FWIW most empirical studies show color rendition as the most significant attribute when participants are polled about their perceptions of image quality. It is my belief that working with a sensor designed from the ground up for digital cinema will give Graeme a RAW (sic) data set from which his algorithms can generate purer colors. This expectation is my number one reason for believing that Dragon will meaningfully advance the state of the art.

Disclaimer: I really like highly detailed wide shots so I'm actually pretty geeked up over the 6K thing, but I do understand that's a personal problem for which Dragon therapy is my only hope ;-)

Cheers - #19

i agree with you. Yes I am saying MX is "more than enough". 6K landscapes can be as detailed as you like, but when it comes to magazines (stills) teh page print only has so much details and TV/web 1080p can be very, very good 1080p at times, but it's never more than that, so more than 5K becomes overkill. No one will ever see it but you.

Maybe in 5 years that will change, but we buy our cameras for here and now, and maybe 2 years ahead.

Other factors make Dragon very exciting - resolution not really, I think, for most people as most people don't make features destined for Imax screens

 

[Tom Gleeson]

I'm not a coder but AFAIK an updated plug-in should be all that's needed. Hopefully by now RED and the major NLE/DI/etc vendors have done enough of these revisions that it will be a relatively fast and painless process.

Cheers - #19

Lets hope that Red and the Third party vendors are on to it as a smooth transition is vital as Red already has a (underserved) reputation for being complicated in Post. Fingers crossed Blackmagic and Resolve are one of the first. If you can't post it you can't shoot it

 

[Shane Betts]

Hey, Bettsy! Haven't seen you around in a while.

And I second that question. I've been dreaming of that EPIC 645 ever since it was first mentioned/ announced....

Hey Jeff! I pop in from time to time but life has taken many turns. Still watching the Red dream from a distance though.

 

[Christopher Probst]

You do understand that this is always the case when RED upgrades sensors, so no worries... I am sure Jarred and the Team will take great care of you, otherwise you never would have gotten the camera to test with in the first place. The whole "... won't be possible for the immediate future." is jumping the gun and how the negative rumors get started. Just my 2 cents from first hand experience in the past. Jarred also always had a solution just one email away.

Do you think I would blindly go into a shoot without confirming a workflow strategy for the material... Especially in light of using a prototype camera? Do you also think that Jarred would have given up their new flagship camera without supporting the beta testers? I am well aware of how Red upgrades their cameras, sensors ect. However, being given the opportunity to be one of the first to try the Dragon, it is not my place to divulge any proprietary information prior to when Red would like that info revealed.

I am trying to uphold my end of the bargain and respect Jarred's control of the rolling out of this benchmark product. I will only reaffirm that an r3d from these prototype Dragon cameras will not play on any of current public version of RedCineX. Therefore no r3ds from my shoot will be posted by me.

 

[Andrew Benz]

Do you think I would blindly go into a shoot without confirming a workflow strategy for the material... Especially in light of using a prototype camera? Do you also think that Jarred would have given up their new flagship camera without supporting the beta testers? I am well aware of how Red upgrades their cameras, sensors ect. However, being given the opportunity to be one of the first to try the Dragon, it is not my place to divulge any proprietary information prior to when Red would like that info revealed.

I am trying to uphold my end of the bargain and respect Jarred's control of the rolling out of this benchmark product. I will only reaffirm that an r3d from these prototype Dragon cameras will not play on any of current public version of RedCineX. Therefore no r3ds from my shoot will be posted by me.

OK Chris... I am not trying to turn this into a pissing contest but I have had more than one person of significance point directly to your post as proof that the Dragon was not ready for primetime so don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Do you think I would blindly go into a shoot without confirming a workflow strategy for the material... Especially in light of using a prototype camera? Do you also think that Jarred would have given up their new flagship camera without supporting the beta testers? I am well aware of how Red upgrades their cameras, sensors ect. However, being given the opportunity to be one of the first to try the Dragon, it is not my place to divulge any proprietary information prior to when Red would like that info revealed.

I am trying to uphold my end of the bargain and respect Jarred's control of the rolling out of this benchmark product. I will only reaffirm that an r3d from these prototype Dragon cameras will not play on any of current public version of RedCineX. Therefore no r3ds from my shoot will be posted by me.

Wish I had known you were about to shoot on Dragon. I would of paid you even more for that mag LOL!

 

[Christopher Probst]

OK Chris... I am not trying to turn this into a pissing contest but I have had more than one person of significance point directly to your post as proof that the Dragon was not ready for primetime so don't shoot the messenger.

The real issue is everyone reading into every single word and over analyzing and twisting the context to their own desires... When the camera is released, we can all discuss and debate its merits... Until then, patience!

 

[Nick Morrison]

OK Chris... I am not trying to turn this into a pissing contest but I have had more than one person of significance point directly to your post as proof that the Dragon was not ready for primetime so don't shoot the messenger.

Sounds like people looking for problems. All I know is on Christopher's touch screen showed he was shooting 6k at 1200 ISO at it looked like he has a couple of more stops to play with!!! (his histogram was to the left). WOW!!!

 

[Brian Merlen]

im not sure why people would even think a workflow isn't in place...reds had a good workflow in place for like 5 years now...they update the SDK and boom Dragon works with all the third party apps. the non released beta is obviously working just fine...just like the camera...its just going to not be released until they do more extensive testing... and use it on some big name projects first...

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

i agree with you. Yes I am saying MX is "more than enough".

Could not agree more. However, it all depends on how you intend to use the tool. There are a number of areas where having the headroom of 6K will work out awesome for a 4k, or 2K finish. I'm sure everyone has thought about or heard those reasons here many times over.

6K landscapes can be as detailed as you like, but when it comes to magazines (stills) teh page print only has so much details and TV/web 1080p can be very, very good 1080p at times, but it's never more than that, so more than 5K becomes overkill. No one will ever see it but you.

True, for delivery via current platforms. But obviously there are already nascent delivery mechanisms that will cater to UHD content.

Maybe in 5 years that will change, but we buy our cameras for here and now, and maybe 2 years ahead.

I actually bought mine for current use, and with an eye toward the future. With the UHD standard only just reaching consumers, it appears safe to say we are ahead of the curve. Not to mention RED has exhibited a slight slant toward customer care, and propelling the concept of "obsolescence obsolete." If one cannot afford the outlay, yet does not intend to think of the camera as a tool or plan to use it in the support of earning capital, then there may be a problem for that owner.

As for the camera itself, I would prefer the best S/N ratio the sensor can muster, the widest gamut possible (within given color space limitations), the most DR RED can eke out and at the highest resolution. My next statement really depends on the end goal for your material, but: Why not future proof? After all, we're ultimately talking about the value that can be attached to IP, so if I am going to invest time, finance, AND passion into any undertaking, I would prefer that the resultant content remain usable into as distant a future as possible.

And solutions abound for every configuration imaginable. There are proxy recorders that further expand capability. And these options are/will be available from both RED and 3rd party suppliers (as you are undoubtedly aware). In the end, I would rather have the functionality and not need it, than need it and not have it. But that stated, there are cost considerations for every move we make -- just have to be smart and try to project where the bulk of one's earning potential is likely to emanate from.

... most people don't make features destined for Imax screens

Maybe that is solely because most people have never had that opportunity.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Sounds like people looking for problems. All I know is on Christopher's touch screen showed he was shooting 6k at 1200 ISO at it looked like he has a couple of more stops to play with!!! (his histogram was to the left). WOW!!!

1280.

EXACTLY.

And with a spot source aimed directly at cam -- and look at the SUBJECT'S FACE immediately next to that light bloom. That looks like an impossibly smooth roll off into subject illumination. At first I thought it could be spill from the flashlight, but upon closer inspection, it appears instead to be a secondary source under the spot. (read: lower foot-candles)

 

[Joseph Coleman]

I don't understand how the histogram and stop lights are not showing any clipping at all!! If thats the case then Dragon is un-real!

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

I don't understand how the histogram and stop lights are not showing any clipping at all!! If thats the case then Dragon is un-real!

That's what I was saying at 4a this morning.

 

[Brian Merlen]

+1 for the no clipping amazement! freaked me out! looks like a must have upgrade...

 

[Brook Willard]

One major league production was going to shoot EPIC MX for everything except the "wide vistas"... and use 6K Dragon on those. After viewing his tests... the project will go 100% Dragon. It is a 20 camera shoot.

Say, that test rings a bell! And what a perfect location for a resolution/dynamic range test, too...

 

[Andy Roberts]

Say, that test rings a bell! And what a perfect location for a resolution/dynamic range test, too...

So is that a frame grab from the Dragon, Brook? Is that the sun in top middle frame? If this is a real frame grab, you just gotta supply a higher res version. Like 6K

 

[Matt Ryan]

This a pic that Phil shot of the 9" Red touch screen monitor on the camera while we were shooting... It's abstract enough that I think I can safely post it here...

What's funny is I always try to shoot for as little noise as possible... Often landing at 500 or 640 ISO...

Here I was trying to make it dark but the Dragon is so sensitive you really need to rethink your ideas about lighting! The governing factor on this shot was the intensity of the flashlight... At ISO 1500 and 1600, I would have had to futz with NDing the flashlight... We wanted the environment to feel like there was a power outage... As a DP, I wanted enough on my neg to have detail and options without unwanted noise...

I have plenty of noiseless options to knock this down this weekend in the grade!

I really wan't to see this as an R3D grab if possible. I know it's kind of out of your hands but that would be awesome to see the noise and latitude.

 

[Brook Willard]

So is that a frame grab from the Dragon, Brook? Is that the sun in top middle frame? If this is a real frame grab, you just gotta supply a higher res version. Like 6K

Heh, nope. It's a cell phone shot. You can see the Dragon on sticks in the bottom of frame.

 

[David Battistella]

The real issue is everyone reading into every single word and over analyzing and twisting the context to their own desires... When the camera is released, we can all discuss and debate its merits... Until then, patience!

Hey Christpher,

Nice work. It's great that RED put it in your hands and i know we will be hearing more detailed stuff when the time is right. What blows my mind is that at 1250 iso the highlight of the flashlight doesn't blow out on the histogram. More so, the rest of the image is so bright.

i don't want to see images, i know there are reams of them that will show up, but can you share your initail impressions on how you plan to handle all that DR? More from a cinematography/craft perspective.

david