Dragon??? So after nearly 10months what do we think? NATIVE 2000ASA no 18stops no ..

[Matt Ryan]

Without getting into brand bashing I prepped 3 jobs this year that won't allow Canon or Sony cameras on set. That's all I can say on that matter.

I am saying that if you are happy with the ISO 1600 and 3200 and beyond samples shown here from the A7s and describe them as clean:
http://www.jdfnet.com/2014/08/01/sony-a7s-vs-red-epic-and-gh4-low-light/

Than why is Dragon at ISO 2000 not considered clean:


I don't recall if I used the denoise slider or not, but that is a 2.40:1 crop from 6K HD material at ISO 2000.

This is with the old olpf though right?

 

[Phil Holland]

This is with the old olpf though right?

Nope. New OLPF. The key is it's not underexposed.

To Phil: I am still not sure as to the intent of your post...

Apologies if I'm coming off any specific way. I'm more or less saying that none of this is apples to apples and when saying that something is "clean" at a specific ISO can be confusing. I'll try to shoot a side by side maybe next week to clearly show the comparison.


These are 100% Crops from an ISO 2000 exposed image, 6K HD, REDCODE 5:1 material with the various methods of effecting noise in the SDK. You can click all of these to open in a new window or tab to view the full size image.

Nothing done.



Denoise 6



DEB



ADD + DEB



Full image scaled to 1080p just for reference:

 

[Jarred Land]

Not sure what the intent of your posts are either, besides for some reason trying to antagonize Phil.

You seem hell bent on having Phil explain himself for this

Don't worry Nick. I will take care of Ivan. I wasn't joking when I said i wasn't going to put up with people that have nothing better to do than to fuck with others.

Phil does so much for every single person in this community that it astounds me that anyone would try and throw punches his way.

 

[paul schefz]

Nope. New OLPF. The key is it's not underexposed.




Apologies if I'm coming off any specific way. I'm more or less saying that none of this is apples to apples and when saying that something is "clean" at a specific ISO can be confusing. I'll try to shoot a side by side maybe next week to clearly show the comparison.


These are 100% Crops from an ISO 2000 exposed image, 6K HD, REDCODE 5:1 material with the various methods of effecting noise in the SDK. You can click all of these to open in a new window or tab to view the full size image.

Nothing done.



Denoise 6



DEB



ADD + DEB



Full image scaled to 1080p just for reference:

i see that you are the only person posting samples here shooting dragon at 5:1....what is the lowest/best compression at 50fps? according to the little app on red.com it is 9:1 (or 11:1?) can anyone confirm this? anything over 5:1 with my epic is not good for me....so maybe the higher compression of the samples i have seen explains the (for me not ideal) noise/grain/texture? anyone?

 

[Sergio Perez]

My concerns have been addressed by Jarred and Red so I'm all good about where the Dragon is going. I just had to address this Noise issue.

I find it strange experienced and good DP's defending poor low light sensitivity of a camera. Also, the simplistic comments of " You want higher ISO's because you can't light" just sound WRONG. Its all about the possibilities. Having a camera that has higher sensitivity allows for more creative choices, and yes, with cheaper, lighter, more portable lighting solutions. Jarred addressed this in a previous post- The best Cinematographers don't need grip and light trucks all the time to light a scene. They need Lights, and can work with Natural lights. One of the Red pioneers, Steve Soderbergh (always misspell his name for whatever reason, sorry!) is an avid defendant of using natural light in his compositions. He loves RED, specially the Epic, because it allowed him FREEDOM and CREATIVE CHOICES, while maintaining excellent image quality.

Lets not forget that RED is on the market to make the BEST CAMERA POSSIBLE. This was Jarred statement and its commendable. Is another reason why we are all here. I've said this before, but, and I believe some other users, like Mark Toia, shoot motorsports. We tend to use High Speed and very High shutter Speeds in our shoots. During Racing, for example, we need to often go for Telephoto lenses, which, at best, have an aperture of 2.8, and regularly 4.0. These will immediately push us to use higher ISO's. One cannot "light" on a Grand Prix Pit Lane, on a Team Garage during racing/qualification/Practice. You may get away with some portable LEDS, provided your team works similarly to a Formula 1 pit crew. Its during these moments that you can capture the "drama", the feel of the drivers, the teams, mechanics, everything. You might call this specific, but, and I think in any sport or human "Documentary" type of scenario, the usage of natural light and the need for portable, on the move low power consumption lighting is a must. And having higher sensibility is key to maximise this type of shooting. The Dragon with Higher sensibility could be the game changer here. I am planning an album of Photography+film of an event. Here are some MX stills I pulled out from my footage, some of it ISO 1280. https://www.flickr.com/photos/126716363@N06/with/14848324852/ . With my upgrade to Dragon, I hope to finally be able to make the definite stills and Film combo of the Event. I'm sure RED will deliver.

To conclude, please stop with this "No need for high sensitivity" Nonsense. Ivan Kovax pointed out well: the competition isn't asleep at the wheel. We are all red users here. This thread had great suggestions and opinions, and we were listened and things are going in the correct way. Lets not enter into personal bashing, insults to others valuable opinions. Lets not forget: Red aims to make the best camera possible. They achieved great sensibility with Epic MX. For me, clean 1600, or similar to MX 800 noise at 1600 would be the "Holly Grail"

 

[Chris Henze]

Phil does so much for every single person in this community that it astounds me that anyone would try and throw punches his way.

+1000 on how much Phil does. Thank you.

 

[paul schefz]

am i wrong or was there just a post here simply asking for some official red raw files showing properly exposed dragon at iso 2000? since all the ones showing noise are dismissed as being incorrectly exposed...

 

[Jarred Land]

One of the Red pioneers, Steve Soderbergh (always misspell his name for whatever reason, sorry!) is an avid defendant of using natural light in his compositions. He loves RED, specially the Epic, because it allowed him FREEDOM and CREATIVE CHOICES, while maintaining excellent image quality.

Watch his latest work ( on Dragon ) I am pretty sure it has some of the lowest light scenes he has ever shot. Looks great.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Watch his latest work ( on Dragon ) I am pretty sure it has some of the lowest light scenes he has ever shot. Looks great.

What's the name of the film Jarred? Old OLPF, I presume? All good, since we have the option to use it!

 

[Jarred Land]

What's the name of the film Jarred? Old OLPF, I presume? All good, since we have the option to use it!

The Knick. Its not out yet but there is a trailer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_xvw-_YJSo

Yes old OLPF, but we are calling it the "low light" OLPF now remember . If low light, underexposure and noise is your number one concern like it seems to be for some people , Dragon + the Low Light OLPF is incredibly hard to beat.

 

[Sergio Perez]

The Knick. Its not out yet but there is a trailer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_xvw-_YJSo

Yes old OLPF, but we are calling it the "low light" OLPF now remember . If low light, underexposure and noise is your number one concern like it seems to be for some people , Dragon + the Low Light OLPF is incredibly hard to beat.

SOLD!

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

This is impressive- Dragon 6K at 100fps with ADD + DEB + at work:

https://vimeo.com/102768527

 

[Martin Stevens]

Here is a stress test with my new Dragon with new OLPF. This was shoot improperly lit, and underexposed with literally
only two 40 watt light bulbs in the practicals above the center island.

3200 ISO 2800K RG4 DCL DN6

Shot at T 2.1

 

[Nick Morrison]

Here is a stress test with my new Dragon with new OLPF. This was shoot improperly lit, and underexposed with literally
only two 40 watt light bulbs in the practicals above the center island.

3200 ISO 2800K RG4 DCL DN6

Shoot at T 2.1

Martin. Looks GREAT!!! Amazing to see how usable 3200 ISO on the NEW OLPF!!!

 

[Martin Stevens]

Martin. Looks GREAT!!! Amazing to see how usable 3200 ISO on the NEW OLPF!!!

Yes, and if I was going to shoot lots of stuff like this I would use the Low-Light OLPF.

 

[Daniel Pearson]

The Knick. Its not out yet but there is a trailer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_xvw-_YJSo

Yes old OLPF, but we are calling it the "low light" OLPF now remember . If low light, underexposure and noise is your number one concern like it seems to be for some people , Dragon + the Low Light OLPF is incredibly hard to beat.

Wow that looks awesome

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

The Knick. Its not out yet but there is a trailer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_xvw-_YJSo

Yes old OLPF, but we are calling it the "low light" OLPF now remember . If low light, underexposure and noise is your number one concern like it seems to be for some people , Dragon + the Low Light OLPF is incredibly hard to beat.

Looks stellar.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Without getting into brand bashing I prepped 3 jobs this year that won't allow Canon or Sony cameras on set. That's all I can say on that matter.

I am saying that if you are happy with the ISO 1600 and 3200 and beyond samples shown here from the A7s and describe them as clean:
http://www.jdfnet.com/2014/08/01/sony-a7s-vs-red-epic-and-gh4-low-light/.

Lets see if I can do this a little differently this time round, and perhaps I won't come across as obtuse. As I actually do have better things to do (as we all do) than come across rough.

Each camera has its strong points. Whilst I do own a Dragon, and the leaps and bounds they have made with the dragon are commendable, it is clear (as Sergio put it) that other camera makers are taking note and are stellar at low light. They are caning it. As I said before in a deleted post, I actually don't mind grain and regularly use my Dragon at 3200. It has a good texture and feel to it.

But many don't like this. They prefer a clean image out of camera. Its clear that the A7S is the current king of this, despite its lack of raw video, no global shutter and offensive skew. But at slightly over 14 stops of DR, it is a pocket monster.

I don't pretend to know whether the A7S uses noise reduction, I don't know if any of us do, but what is clear is that the large photosites are absorbing light like a sponge.

That being said, Dragon is no slouch, but in the same way we have to give credit where credit is due to these other systems that have produced remarkable results. I am on an Alexa now. We are shooting open gate. Next month will be the F55. For a major cinema release too. In September I shoot my first larger budget feature as DP on my Dragon. The night shots will be on the A7S. It is small. Portable. Insane DR for something that can fit in one's pocket. Outresolves the Alexa.

As an unfortunate corollary to what you mentioned about Canons and Sonys not being allowed on to set, I have experience the same with other cameras. And often with Red. Whatever the reason may be (we all know the reasons that have been bandied about regarding this). I am not sure how valid a point that is, as often when productions refuse to use a camera it can be due to poor past experiences often from improper use and understanding of the gear. There are a myriad of reasons, and I guarantee you whatever they are, we have all probably heard the same about Red. So we know what to make of statements such as that.

Now that the original flawed OLPF is being rebranded as the lowlight OLPF, we have that option to get cleaner blacks in the dark and times where underexposure is a problem at the expense of a kind rolloff with the new olpf. It is a tradeoff, but a decent middleground solution.

 

[sergio arguello]

Lets see if I can do this a little differently this time round, and perhaps I won't come across as obtuse. As I actually do have better things to do (as we all do) than come across rough.

Each camera has its strong points. Whilst I do own a Dragon, and the leaps and bounds they have made with the dragon are commendable, it is clear (as Sergio put it) that other camera makers are taking note and are stellar at low light. They are caning it. As I said before in a deleted post, I actually don't mind grain and regularly use my Dragon at 3200. It has a good texture and feel to it.

But many don't like this. They prefer a clean image out of camera. Its clear that the A7S is the current king of this, despite its lack of raw video, no global shutter and offensive skew. But at slightly over 14 stops of DR, it is a pocket monster.

I don't pretend to know whether the A7S uses noise reduction, I don't know if any of us do, but what is clear is that the large photosites are absorbing light like a sponge.

That being said, Dragon is no slouch, but in the same way we have to give credit where credit is due to these other systems that have produced remarkable results. I am on an Alexa now. We are shooting open gate. Next month will be the F55. For a major cinema release too. In September I shoot my first larger budget feature as DP on my Dragon. The night shots will be on the A7S. It is small. Portable. Insane DR for something that can fit in one's pocket. Outresolves the Alexa.

As an unfortunate corollary to what you mentioned about Canons and Sonys not being allowed on to set, I have experience the same with other cameras. And often with Red. Whatever the reason may be (we all know the reasons that have been bandied about regarding this). I am not sure how valid a point that is, as often when productions refuse to use a camera it can be due to poor past experiences often from improper use and understanding of the gear. There are a myriad of reasons, and I guarantee you whatever they are, we have all probably heard the same about Red. So we know what to make of statements such as that.

Now that the original flawed OLPF is being rebranded as the lowlight OLPF, we have that option to get cleaner blacks in the dark and times where underexposure is a problem at the expense of a kind rolloff with the new olpf. It is a tradeoff, but a decent middleground solution.

when you put it that way it just occurs to me that yes it was a flawed OLPF and it did have better lowlight capability, but wasn't there also a distasteful flare issue as well?

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Lets see if I can do this a little differently this time round, and perhaps I won't come across as obtuse. As I actually do have better things to do (as we all do) than come across rough.

Each camera has its strong points. Whilst I do own a Dragon, and the leaps and bounds they have made with the dragon are commendable, it is clear (as Sergio put it) that other camera makers are taking note and are stellar at low light. They are caning it. As I said before in a deleted post, I actually don't mind grain and regularly use my Dragon at 3200. It has a good texture and feel to it.

But many don't like this. They prefer a clean image out of camera. Its clear that the A7S is the current king of this, despite its lack of raw video, no global shutter and offensive skew. But at slightly over 14 stops of DR, it is a pocket monster.

I don't pretend to know whether the A7S uses noise reduction, I don't know if any of us do, but what is clear is that the large photosites are absorbing light like a sponge.

That being said, Dragon is no slouch, but in the same way we have to give credit where credit is due to these other systems that have produced remarkable results. I am on an Alexa now. We are shooting open gate. Next month will be the F55. For a major cinema release too. In September I shoot my first larger budget feature as DP on my Dragon. The night shots will be on the A7S. It is small. Portable. Insane DR for something that can fit in one's pocket. Outresolves the Alexa.

As an unfortunate corollary to what you mentioned about Canons and Sonys not being allowed on to set, I have experience the same with other cameras. And often with Red. Whatever the reason may be (we all know the reasons that have been bandied about regarding this). I am not sure how valid a point that is, as often when productions refuse to use a camera it can be due to poor past experiences often from improper use and understanding of the gear. There are a myriad of reasons, and I guarantee you whatever they are, we have all probably heard the same about Red. So we know what to make of statements such as that.

Now that the original flawed OLPF is being rebranded as the lowlight OLPF, we have that option to get cleaner blacks in the dark and times where underexposure is a problem at the expense of a kind rolloff with the new olpf. It is a tradeoff, but a decent middleground solution.

is this joke? insane DR on A7s? wow thanks for making me laugh.