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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon??? So after nearly 10months what do we think? NATIVE 2000ASA no 18stops no ..

Jan Reiff said:
why ? put it on. and good. slider makes not really sense.
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Bruce and Davids comments seem correct. The image of the eye would be better with less DEB (but some) and as Bruce says, other non DEB treatment.

Given the variety of shots one shoots choice in how DEB is applied seems logical and no doubt is on Reds to do list.
 
yes, in 500% crops in some areas. well, maybe there will be a slider, ... but it´s not like a standard denoiser, i don´t see any disadvantages on the 4K screen with DEB in detail. yes, in 200+% crops maybe, maybe not ...
 
and how should it work when , as many want, will be IN camera. a slider in the menu ? ;-)
i think again, we are digging very deep now in crop cinema ...
 
Yes.

We must not loose sight that films are not viewed at 200% or even 100% crop. The whole sense and tone of the image matters more than the cropped version.

arent we lucky to have a tool to see this much detail? If I started blowing up log c Prores files up 300 or 400% (4k equivalent) I wonder what we might even have the detail to bitch about. :)

battistella
 
RED DRAGON

RED DRAGON

Like any company, bugs and test trails have to be conducted... When it is finally ready to release to the public it will be. :emote_head_explode:
 
Bruce Allen said:
Nick, I'm not Phil but you've already lost the specific nanometre wavelength info when the light went through the Bayer color filter. The camera just has "red, green, blue" info left. Any post process such as DEB can't get that info back.

Here's a deeper examination. As you can see, this is why I disagree with Phil's statement that DEB is just removing noise and adding detail, or that it is a color science enhancement. It is in many ways more destructive than running Neat Video.

It loses / smears A LOT of color detail. And gains you some luma detail - eg look at the fine hairs on the bottom of the eye and clearly DEB is having a good effect there.

It might be a good idea to run both DEB and non-DEB and then do some kind of clever combining. Or tweak DEB filter.

EDIT: For reference, here's Phil's original post:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...o-18stops-no&p=1399859&viewfull=1#post1399859

DEB_examine_ba_v01.jpg


Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
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Hi Bruce,

I read, with interest, your post. I previously emailed Graeme my observations, as regards, what appears to me, on my monitor, to be a 66onm, or so cut filter. Now, there are other possibilities, for what DEB is doing, such as cutting a certain density of a given hue, but the issue of the image, in RCX, that, with DEB, loses a certain band, in some algorithmic fashion, seems apparent to me. The question I posed to Graeme and others, off forum, is why not have a slider control, for DEB, as There are many genre, that may not want any DEB and gradations thereof. Horror, bloody, somewhat more or less such scenes, come readily to mind.

Then there are the cherubic or Cushingoid facies, that could be extreme examples of less than desirable DEB effect, but just might benefit, from some DEB. Might be easier to get an R3d of a Fitzpatrick I or II skin type, , with facial telangectasia and slightly overheated and see what DEB does to that image. even better, with a hangover...

All the above, is based on whatever DEB version Phil used to post his examples and the further work of Bruce, of course. It would seem that, as hue and wavelength are in the context of this discussion, it might serve to avoid specific anatomic characterizations of Phil's scleral vessels, until it is known if the appearance is there in vivo and if the hue is accurate (on my monitor,;-)). This is of some utility, as the venous side of human blood vessel circulation, of course, has different spectral characteristics than the arterial side.

What is very clear is that DEB is not for every circumstance and that it seems the fix here still needs to be at a different level.

Thank you very much

Fury
 
LoL don't tell me now 4k doesn't matter.... You certainly see a huge diffenrence in a 100% crop with and without DEB.

3 choices :

- enough good for me I'll use DEB
- I want more and I'll try to compare all denoise tool and do it on my way
- I'll use the original OLPF when modular device is out.

The choice is yours but don't tell me the crop stuff.

Pat

PS: Jan, try to make one post next time. ;-)
 
Patrick Tresch said:
I understand your example Jan but look at the color definition, you'll see less detail. The luma values aren't harmed.

Pat
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watched all my footage on a 4K screen and liked the "DEB on" footage (in scenes we talk about the red sparkles) more. maybe question of taste, don´t know. i leave this party now ;-)
 
Jan Reiff said:
watched all my footage on a 4K screen and liked the "DEB on" footage (in scenes we talk about the red sparkles) more. maybe question of taste, don´t know. i leave this party now ;-)
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Hey, before you go, I think you misunderstand me.

My thinking is not just "DEB on" vs "DEB off"...

It's "DEB on + Neat Video" vs "DEB off + Neat Video" or "combination of DEB on and DEB off + maybe a little Neat Video"

My thought are that quite possibly "DEB on" loses / smears too much color detail in many cases.

With stuff like Neat Video's temporal noise reduction, you don't want to throw away that detail too early. Instead, you want to give the smartest algorithm the most info. And for me that algorithm is currently Neat Video (plus a few other tricks).

Please note that this is a very different position to Phil's which seemed to be that "3rd party noise reduction reduces detail" while "DEB is an upgrade that discovers detail". I'm just way more cautious on DEB, I guess.

RE: crops and all of that... well, it's just about getting the best picture quality out of the camera. And yeah that involves pixel peeping. No shame in that if your goal is to find the maximum image quality you can get out of a camera.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce and Jan,

Is there a colour shift at all when deb is applied? I haven't had a chance to play with it but I need to know how it react with colour in the whole frame.

Thanks

Ivan
 
Ivan Kovax said:
Bruce and Jan,

Is there a colour shift at all when deb is applied? I haven't had a chance to play with it but I need to know how it react with colour in the whole frame.

Thanks

Ivan
Click to expand...

There is a slight hue shift with certain colors and reds get muted at times. Depends on the shot.
 
I see. The new olpf is rather accurate. It would be a shame to see this countered by DEB. Is the shift predictable such that one can apply a look of sorts to correct for it and keep the look from the original olpf, or is it on a skewed matrix (if you know what I mean)? Or is it simply not significant enough to be of any major concern?
 
guys everyone i talk to not on RU likes dragon...i think this whole thing is way out of proportion to be honest.. its getting to the point where i am going to buy an arri for my next camera just to diversify. i love my dragon and am not going to get rid of it, but the insatiable debate is hurting the rental-ability and i just need to diversify to protect myself at this point...arri and glass is my future investment strategy. in no way do i fault red for this situation, its entirely brought on by the people on RU who hyped this, i love the camera but i just want to diversify is all
 
Ivan Kovax said:
I see. The new olpf is rather accurate. It would be a shame to see this countered by DEB. Is the shift predictable such that one can apply a look of sorts to correct for it and keep the look from the original olpf, or is it on a skewed matrix (if you know what I mean)? Or is it simply not significant enough to be of any major concern?
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You can tweak it back in a dedicated program like Resolve. It just slightly mutes or smoothes out the reds. Not sure if that's a good description or not. If you only saw the DEB version your probably wouldn't notice a difference. If you flip between on and off you will notice the difference...
 
Matt Ryan said:
You can tweak it back in a dedicated program like Resolve. It just slightly mutes or smoothes out the reds. Not sure if that's a good description or not. If you only saw the DEB version your probably wouldn't notice a difference. If you flip between on and off you will notice the difference...
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Thanks Matt. I guess I'll just have to test it out. I'm working for the next month straight, so I am eager to test it out... But simply don't have the time to...
 
Ivan Kovax said:
Thanks Matt. I guess I'll just have to test it out. I'm working for the next month straight, so I am eager to test it out... But simply don't have the time to...
Click to expand...

No worries. Like I said, if you don't switch between the two and you just applied DEB, you wouldn't notice a difference or think it looked inaccurate. It's a very slight difference.
 
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