DRAGON-or-HELIUM

[Samir Patel]

If highlights are Helium's weakness whats the advantage over Dragon? I dont see that much sharpness improvement over dragon.Do you guys see it?

Um... S35 or near it at 8K so you can use existing s35 glass at higher resolution? 8K still frames. (vs 6K Dragon as VV isn't exactly available in large quantities yet)

 

[Russ Fill]

Of course, the new science of color should give more substance to Helium and DR.
For everyone is different I prefer to have more latitude in the highlights at the same aperture and not having to lift the ISO and close the iris or add ND.
I like more the idea to throw open the iris without worry of clipping

Is the choice is difficult between Helium and VV ...


I think that you are coming closer to Arri release of a new sensor, but it is not easy now to make a big difference. We will wait this time

Linear gamma

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Theres got to be some special sauce coming from RED for the Helium. Maybe a new RCX pro with the ability to iron out those highlights. Red has something up its sleeve and October can't come soon enough.
Or maybe well will all need to learn the Helium way like we did the MX and Dragon way.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Another factor one should take into account are the OLPF's. What OLPF's are on the Heliums tested? Maybe fitted with the Highlight Priority OLPF, the balance would change and give similar results to current Dragons.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Theres got to be some special sauce coming from RED for the Helium. Maybe a new RCX pro with the ability to iron out those highlights. Red has something up its sleeve and October can't come soon enough.
Or maybe well will all need to learn the Helium way like we did the MX and Dragon way.

yep Russ
+1

Another factor one should take into account are the OLPF's. What OLPF's are on the Heliums tested? Maybe fitted with the Highlight Priority OLPF, the balance would change and give similar results to current Dragons.

Sergio,
both standard OLPF, I would have liked to put OLPF low light on Dragon.
Helium is substantially more sensitive to light and obviously less noisy with the same OLPF.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

yep Russ
+1


Sergio,
both standard OLPF, I would have liked to put OLPF low light on Dragon.
Helium is substantially more sensitive to light and obviously less noisy with the same OLPF.

But it also means the color science is exactly the same as Dragon, meaning Helium is essentially Dragon s35mm 8K. This means that whatever color science is being developed to handle Helium in post should be able to apply to Dragon, right?

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

Anyone having both and wanting to do a comparison (and posting R3Ds) of:

Weapon 6K @ 800iso VS Helium + 0.3 ND @ 1600iso

plus

Weapon 6K @ 500iso VS Helium + 0.6 ND @ 2000iso

and even better:

Weapon 6K @ 800iso VS Helium + 0.X ND @ 2000iso (using the Motion Mount to get to the exact exposure compensation to match clipping point)

Basically trying to match the clipping point on both and then comparing the low end for noise @ 4K DCI delivery 1:1????

Pretty please!!!!

John?????

 

[John Marchant]

Proper answer coming tomorrow.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Proper answer coming tomorrow.

John with r3d files for download ?

 

[luigivaltulini]

Anyone having both and wanting to do a comparison (and posting R3Ds) of:

Weapon 6K @ 800iso VS Helium + 0.3 ND @ 1600iso

plus

Weapon 6K @ 500iso VS Helium + 0.6 ND @ 2000iso

and even better:

Weapon 6K @ 800iso VS Helium + 0.X ND @ 2000iso (using the Motion Mount to get to the exact exposure compensation to match clipping point)

Basically trying to match the clipping point on both and then comparing the low end for noise @ 4K DCI delivery 1:1????

Pretty please!!!!

John?????

and, yep remember Dragon 6k is possible 3:1 compression Vs Helium 8k 5:1.

 

[Antony Newman]

DSMC : Digital stills would benefit from 11k ... And give medium format camera a bit of a 'scare'.

Red could always window it down to ~9k Helium for 60 fps.

It would not surprise me if Red would want to keep a VV sized Helium sensor for the future (which is eminently reasonable).

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+) The first Graphene transistors have been created (90% more current drive than 'current state of art Silicon & 1/5th of the power)
http://phys.org/news/2016-09-carbon-nanotube-transistors-outperform-silicon.html

+) Intel vs TSMC vs GF vs Samsung : Have a at the following (bottom chart)
https://www.semiwiki.com/forum/content/6160-2016-leading-edge-semiconductor-landscape.html
2017 is going be a Fun year .. With two foundries rolling out '8nm' (Standard Node) processes.

AJ

 

[Anthony Berenato Jr]

Jarred is often mentioning how the Stormtrooper crew is making things "better for all of us." Also, with the new imaging pipeline finishing up around October as well - I'm thinking that Helium will change significantly once the way the sensor is utilized / calibrated is finalized. I wonder if the highlight loss will very well go away by the time the sensor upgrade is finally released.

The test crew sure has given RED a load of footage from all over the world to look through and poke at. Excited to see what's next from Graeme.

 

[Sergio Perez]

yep Russ
+1


Sergio,
both standard OLPF, I would have liked to put OLPF low light on Dragon.
Helium is substantially more sensitive to light and obviously less noisy with the same OLPF.

Thanks for the info Luigi. Would really like to see how the Helium would react with the Highlight Priority one and see if it equals Standard Dragon on Highlights, which seems where most criticism here is focused on.

I very much prefer lower noise and better sensibility than having better highlights, that's why I have the LLO OLPF always on my Epic Dragon. Would also love to see the results of sensitivity (noise floor) and highlights of LLO Dragon vs Helium with Standard OLPF, and, why not- see what sensitivity one can get with Helium with the LLO OLPF.

Hopefully you lucky stormtroopers can test these!

 

[Brody_B]

Jarred is often mentioning how the Stormtrooper crew is making things "better for all of us." Also, with the new imaging pipeline finishing up around October as well - I'm thinking that Helium will change significantly once the way the sensor is utilized / calibrated is finalized. I wonder if the highlight loss will very well go away by the time the sensor upgrade is finally released.

The test crew sure has given RED a load of footage from all over the world to look through and poke at. Excited to see what's next from Graeme.

Now highlight loss is a thing from the Helium sensor?! What are u talking about. Based off of 1 over exposed clip u saw? I was able to pull back high detail from a R3d that was way far gone from one of the posts here. I wouldn't start making assumptions so blindly.

 

[Anthony Berenato Jr]

Now highlight loss is a thing from the Helium sensor?! What are u talking about. Based off of 1 over exposed clip u saw? I was able to pull back high detail from a R3d that was way far gone from one of the posts here. I wouldn't start making assumptions so blindly.

Brody, I'm sorry you took my comment incorrectly. I didn't mean highlight loss directly, but meant that it seems there's a difference between the way Helium captures highlights versus Dragon. Most people are stating that the highlights on Helium are not as easy to bring back in comparison to Dragon. This has been shown via various test charts and footage comparisons, and mentioned a few times elsewhere.

So "loss" was not meant to be taken as "pure white" - but more as an "in comparison." My comment was merely a way to say, "Hey, I'm sure things are going to be perfect after some fine tuning!" Also, be more kind and start a constructive conversation instead of one spawned from negativity. I'm just as excited for this sensor as anyone else, and even more excited to see how things change in the next few months.

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

it seems there's a difference between the way Helium captures highlights versus Dragon

It could very well be just very different native ISOs so placing middle gray accordingly in both would (hopefully) reveal a similar latitude.

John????

Today is the day he he

 

[Brody_B]

Brody, I'm sorry you took my comment incorrectly. I didn't mean highlight loss directly, but meant that it seems there's a difference between the way Helium captures highlights versus Dragon. Most people are stating that the highlights on Helium are not as easy to bring back in comparison to Dragon. This has been shown via various test charts and footage comparisons, and mentioned a few times elsewhere.

So "loss" was not meant to be taken as "pure white" - but more as an "in comparison." My comment was merely a way to say, "Hey, I'm sure things are going to be perfect after some fine tuning!" Also, be more kind and start a constructive conversation instead of one spawned from negativity. I'm just as excited for this sensor as anyone else, and even more excited to see how things change in the next few months.

I must be reading different things. To me It hasn't been apparent enough to confirm any form of higlight issues with Helium.

 

[Bobby Farokhzad]

If we can see an R3D file, all will be revealed.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

There's r3d files earlier in this thread with charts

 

[John Marchant]

Here is a Xyla-21 chart shot on Dragon and Helium at a proper testing facility here at Pinewood, with the assistance of the kind folks at Red Europe, and my friend and colleague Jake Davies.

Bear in mind, xyla charts are an ugly colour- realistically we should test each channel individually and combine, as there's a stop less blue in the chart than any other colour... However that's impractical and also doesn't represent real world use, where a variety of colour temps must be accommodated. Add a stop to all reckoning for a perfect daylit source. Remember to question how the chart is clipped - you can cheat a stop out of a xyla chart by 'nearly' clipping the second stop. These are shot with a measured one-stop difference from clip (1) to chip 2.

I'm posting a jpg, not an R3D for good reason - this is my analysis, for my information. It allows me to split screen and compare with control, and in a worst case deliverable scenario all at once. You can draw your own conclusions from it - if you want to go deeper you need to shoot your own chart to know the variables.

I don't trust anyone's tests but my own, and nor should you.

That said, my takeaway from the chart is much the same as gut feeling shooting the camera:

Dragon captures 1/2 to 1 stop more total range. The lower few stops are pretty questionable though, and the noise floor is unavoidably filled with chroma noise. Stay in the usable range, ETTR, put light on silicon etc etc and all is lovely.

Helium captures slightly less total DR, but each captured stop looks better, and the noise floor is clean and usable without NR. Chroma character is notably better throughout. Don't fear the shadows like you do on Dragon- a slight mental adjustment is all.

In terms of usable DR, both are equal IMHO, and equal to the everything else pro quality I've tested too*. But Helium trumps Dragon for fidelity, colour and noise. Dragon's larger pixel pitch means that aesthetics and lens character for a given res (and hence frame rate) are better.

*dat dragon monochrome tho - 17 stops, no bs

 

[luigivaltulini]

thanks John is possible 3 frame r3d, Helium and Dragon, this chart?
I just wanted to try a.d.d on Dragon.
little noise reduction

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