Dragon Noise Confirmation

[Zeb B]

I always open up 1 full stop over an incident reading at subject. That's very common.

Just looking for a mental starting place rule for Dragon in commercial shooting: 2-3 stops over grey card or expose at ISO250 perhaps?

 

[Michael Tiemann]

And you are using EXPOSURE tool? Or VIDEO? In the tools menu?

I have used both. I am still very new to DRAGON, but thus far I've treated the two as being interchangeable when it comes to finding middle gray for a given ISO. I also know that when I click on RAW, exposure tells me something different--something much closer to ISO 250 or thereabouts. But again, thus far I am trying to get comfortable using EXPOSURE, VIDEO and the histogram for a given ISO, then seeing what comes up in Resolve. I will look more closely to see whether EXPOSURE and VIDEO are trying to tell me something different.

Regarding my previous characterization about RC3/RG3 and the "flourescent" look, I'm speaking about what some colors look like under UV light. I.e., my Chroma Du Monde colors, when I start to grade, look like a blacklight poster from Spencer Gifts. Using CameraRGB they look like the calm, desaturated colors of the chart, which is a much better starting point for my purposes.

 

[Elsie N]

Layman's terms for clean commercial images?
"ETTR, spot meter your grey card and set exposure 1-2 stops over what meter says to do while keeping the Stoplights off."

Seems that Dragon likes mucho light and can handle it without washing out color saturation or shifting color based on a hot exposure.

Speaking as a layman... Thanks!

 

[Mark Toia]

Yes as stated here your histogram does not peak even when I bring it up to 5600ISO.... so basically you only used the lower end of the sensor. Simply you shot your scene more than f4 stops under perfect exposure...

If you would have exposed to the right and then pushed down 4 stops, then your image would have looked exactly the same... but made out of glass instead of sandpaper


So yes, looks about right for well under exposed 800 ISO.

See screendump when brought up to 6800ISO with no clipping.


Evin just so I understand what do you mean with " I'd say correct exposure (assuming it wasn't a creative choice) would have been ISO 1280." ?

I mean he got 4 or 5 stops to go before he's highlights hit the roof so no real reason for laying so low if clean image is the goal, or? Needs to open up or bring more lights simply. Or just see the noise go away in the downsampling

I got the same results as Björn.

Way under exposed. Sorry dude, it's not the camera, its the operator this time.

It's not to complicated. More light hitting the sensor means less noise.

yes, What David said.


I shoot at 250 ISO for everything. Noise free images all day every day.
I seriously only start to crank up the ISO if I start having issues viewing the monitor.

Yes, I'm a simple no bullshit type of guy that lives by the KISS method each day.


Keep it simple stupid.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

I need to admit to some operator error. I have a second DSC chart (Billups VFX) and I placed this chart in a different location in my scene. What I had judged to be "average" lighting was actually one of the brighter spots in the scene...leading me to overestimate how much light was falling elsewhere. What I discovered was this:

1. My "bright" chart was actually metered for f2.8 at ISO 400 (meaning that my overall test was ETTR one stop compared to my planned exposure at ISO 800).

2. My "second chart meters mid-tone gray at f1.6 at ISO 400, which agrees very much with my own sense that I needed to open things up about 1.5 stops (i.e., from what I thought was an ISO 800 metering to an ISO 320 metering).

I remain impressed at how well the BMCC does with f2.8 @ ISO 800 in this particular environment, except for the bit about clipping everything that's visible in the window to the exterior. But I think that to get a good apples-to-apples comparison I'm going to need to re-shoot the Dragon at f2.0 instead of f2.8, which means I'll be only 2 stops better on the high-end dynamic range, not the 3 stops I get at f2.8.

I should also mention that I have not yet upgrade from .35 to .38. I'm using a rental camera and promised to not upgrade any firmware without first getting permission.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Just looking for a mental starting place rule for Dragon in commercial shooting: 2-3 stops over grey card or expose at ISO250 perhaps?

If by commercial shooting - you mean product shots - non-narrative - then you can just ETTR all the way as long as your stop lights don't indicate clipping.

If you are shooting narrative - shooting shots that will be intercutting within a scene and need to match - that's when you don't want to use ETTR.

When you take an incident light meter reading at your subject - and it reads (for example) T5.6 - that means that assuming your light meter and camera are both rated at the same ISO - is you set the aperture to T5.6 you are making you subject as bright as 18% grey. Caucasian skin tone is approx. 1 full stop over 18% grey. So ... you want to open up one full stop to T4.0. There can be a wide range of skin tone brightness even within caucasian - but 1 full stop is an average that is widely used.

This is not a Dragon thing - it's a measuring light thing.

Pushing your ISO lower and avoiding clip is the best way to make super sexy images - BUT - in situations where you have a lot of dynamic range in the highlights - you want to go the other way. If I was shooting a film in the snow - I would push for higher ISO.

Make sense?

If you are one of those guys that puts an 18% grey card into the frame to assist with exposure - you should really consider trying a light meter instead. You will learn a LOT more with a light meter than a grey card.

 

[Zeb B]

Thanks Mark,
I use both spot light meter and card. Was trying to understand how Dragon is different than all others before it. Seem pretty straight forward from your posts.
Cheers!

 

[Phil Holland]

If you are one of those guys that puts an 18% grey card into the frame to assist with exposure - you should really consider trying a light meter instead. You will learn a LOT more with a light meter than a grey card.

I agree with much of what you said, but since 18% Gray and Light Meters have a symbiotic relationship, I'd say it's important to understand both tools and how to read them.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I agree with much of what you said, but since 18% Gray and Light Meters have a symbiotic relationship, I'd say it's important to understand both tools and how to read them.

Agreed. My point was that if you are often sticking an 18% grey card into a frame and using the cameras meters and or monitor to measure light - you are in for an empowering experience moving to taking incident readings with a light meter.

 

[Nick Fury]

If by commercial shooting - you mean product shots - non-narrative - then you can just ETTR all the way as long as your stop lights don't indicate clipping.

If you are shooting narrative - shooting shots that will be intercutting within a scene and need to match - that's when you don't want to use ETTR.

When you take an incident light meter reading at your subject - and it reads (for example) T5.6 - that means that assuming your light meter and camera are both rated at the same ISO - is you set the aperture to T5.6 you are making you subject as bright as 18% grey. Caucasian skin tone is approx. 1 full stop over 18% grey. So ... you want to open up one full stop to T4.0. There can be a wide range of skin tone brightness even within caucasian - but 1 full stop is an average that is widely used.

This is not a Dragon thing - it's a measuring light thing.

Pushing your ISO lower and avoiding clip is the best way to make super sexy images - BUT - in situations where you have a lot of dynamic range in the highlights - you want to go the other way. If I was shooting a film in the snow - I would push for higher ISO.

Make sense?

If you are one of those guys that puts an 18% grey card into the frame to assist with exposure - you should really consider trying a light meter instead. You will learn a LOT more with a light meter than a grey card.

Hi Mark,

As we know, there are many variances, even within hours, depending on the "native" skin hue and a myriad of factors, from :Fitzpatrick skin type, sun exposure, hemoglobin, bilirubin, ambient temperature to.... The Level system, at a full stop per level, is a very coarse "adjustment," between level 5 &6, which could be quite a bit off from the subject, such that it would seem a very, very accurate clinical eye, at ocularly metering skin hue, etc. or a calibrated handheld meter would be required, to have confidence. The question that seems to be underneath this concept is whether Dragon's sensor/science belies the above,in some manner. I, for one, can't imagine that to be the case. Forgive me if I am quoting you, but I recall that one of you "Big Boys" posted that your use of meters, with Dragon, had increased. That sure seems like a fair statement, but, for accuracy, I really can't concede that meter usage would have changed, in most all cases. Sure I and many others can look at a lit subject and more often than not (which is not acceptable to me at least) call out a 4, 5.6 or whatever and be right, but to be "spot on,"....

Thank you very much

Fury

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I really can't concede that meter usage would have changed, in most all cases. Sure I and many others can look at a lit subject and more often than not (which is not acceptable to me at least) call out a 4, 5.6 or whatever and be right, but to be "spot on,"....

Thank you very much

Fury

It hasn't really changed. It's just that given the added dynamic range - you have a lot more room to play and options of rating ISO. I think that with MX it was easier to lean on in camera tools like the histogram or the monitor path because you only had so much room to swing around in. Now ... there's a bigger room to play in and more ability to leverage dynamic range - not just get a usable exposure.

 

[Jeremy Hildebrant]

If by commercial shooting - you mean product shots - non-narrative - then you can just ETTR all the way as long as your stop lights don't indicate clipping.

When you take an incident light meter reading at your subject - and it reads (for example) T5.6 - that means that assuming your light meter and camera are both rated at the same ISO - is you set the aperture to T5.6 you are making you subject as bright as 18% grey. Caucasian skin tone is approx. 1 full stop over 18% grey. So ... you want to open up one full stop to T4.0. There can be a wide range of skin tone brightness even within caucasian - but 1 full stop is an average that is widely used.

If you point a spot meter at anything and set your exposure accordingly, it is going to make where you took that reading from middle grey(luma). So skin would be mid grey (zone 5) if exposure was based off of a spot meter. Caucasian skin is traditionally zone 6, this is where you would need to open up a stop if spot(reflective) metering skin. An incident meter in front of a 18% grey card is going to give you the correct exposure for that grey to be zone 5. Caucasian skin in that same placement as the 18% grey card should fall right in to place at zone 6. At least this is how it has always worked for film if you meters were properly calibrated and your lab was up to par. With gamma curves and such I've found meters to be less accurate with Epic. Red places middle grey at about 43IRE (MX sensor) it seems, which probably puts skin a bit underexposed if relying on an incident reading in RC3 and RG3. So yes opening up a full stop from an incident reading should put you in the ballpark if going for balanced exposure.... Or spot metering a grey card for that matter.

 

[Ergin Ozturk]

i love that organic look by the way...

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Color me impressed. I took the advice of Jarred, which is to upgrade the EPIC DRAGON to the .38 build and do a brand new black shading. I'm doing some testing now in a different environment, but I have to say that the results I am now seeing, especially with A.D.D. are much more what I was expecting. My late 2013 iMac does the A.D.D. export in a matter of a minute or so, and the results are quite good indeed.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

when you take an incident light meter reading at your subject - and it reads (for example) T5.6 - that means that assuming your light meter and camera are both rated at the same ISO - is you set the aperture to T5.6 you are making you subject as bright as 18% grey. Caucasian skin tone is approx. 1 full stop over 18% grey. So ... you want to open up one full stop to T4.0. There can be a wide range of skin tone brightness even within caucasian - but 1 full stop is an average that is widely used.

I think you mean spot or reflected not incident... Thanks for your posts

 

[Evin Grant]

Here is an R3d frame properly exposed at EI800, using a meter (Sekonic L308) and the histo. Look into the brown sweater and the dark areas of the camera, there is texture but it's really well controlled. As a personal choice I prefer skin tones at metered exposure most of the time, I know Mark likes to open up a stop and that's valid for a more "lit" look.
http://www.evingrant.com/pics/ADD

And here is a 100% split frame between a regular snapshot (top) and an ADD snapshot (bottom)//???? ....

Tiff version of the split... http://www.evingrant.com/pics/ADD.tif

When I project this image to 84"@10' I can't see any noise at all, in fact even the severely underexposed frame from the OP looks great. I think too many are blowing things up to 100% in RCX and looking into the low quarter tones and seeing noise, well DUH! If you blow up any other camera to the same magnification and look into the low quarter tones (especially if it's underexposed) you'll be disappointed. Luckily nobody views our work this way, even on a 4K panel or projector with a 4K signal you need to factor in proper viewing distance and display output.

I'm probably going to be raked over for this but I don't want a digital cinema camera with no noise/grain! Whatever Red has done with the Dragon the noise character is the most "Filmlike" of anything I've seen, period. In fact I would say shooting Dragon at EI2000 is probably about equivalent to Kodak 5219@ EI 500.

Here is a 100% crop of a 1080P DPX frame from CML of scanned Kodak 5219 (No NR) next to my EI800 Dragon shot at 6K 1:1 100% (not ADD)...

http://www.cinematography.net/Skin/skin-2.dpx

For me the Dragon is a replacement for FILM, and the texture of noise is one of the most important parts of that, you can have a noiseless image is you like by shooting at lower EIs or ETTR or ADD or NR but I for one prefer the cinematic look of EI 800-2000.

 

[Zeb B]

Thanks Evin / Mark and all those who contribute! Nice to see content on the front page rather than 50 more "FS" posts ;-)

 

[Nick Morrison]

This is a very illuminating and interesting thread. As someone w/out a Dragon, I'm more than content to learn and absorb on the sidelines. Thanks for everyone who has donated their time, and deep expertise.

 

[Phil Holland]

Here is an R3d frame properly exposed at EI800

Oh fine. I'll buy the Leica M Mount. Damn. Three times now it's made me really want it. Can't really avoid it now.

 

[Evin Grant]

Oh fine. I'll buy the Leica M Mount. Damn. Three times now it's made me really want it. Can't really avoid it now.

Unfortunately I'm noticing a purple color shift at the edge of frame even on the 35mm ASPH Summicron. The 21mm 2.8 is even worse and probably only useable in 3K, unless you have a special post fix that can work wonders then this mount is probably best reserved for 50mm+ or high-speed 3K/2K work.