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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

dragon & mx side by side in the dark...

THANKS Bjorn. Nice work.
 
Ulf Krentz said:
Björn,

thanks for this test. I was actually waiting for something like this. While I also don´t see any remarkable difference between Epic and Scarlet MX I was wondering how much the low CT is doing a flavor to bring the red noise down fellows are complaining about since the new color science / OLPF. Anyway, quite impressive :-)

Cheers, Ulf
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Trust me the differnece is remarkable. But this was looking at the differnence at one to one. if epic dragon shoots full throttle at 6k low compression and the scarlet at 4k then the little difference that you see in this test is, in lack of better words, "scaled up" so if the dragon was doing 6k here I would not be afraid to put the shot into a commercial or such where as the scarlet shot would be far from useable.


Michael Tiemann said:
Bjorn,

Interesting that you chose tungsten light to create your dark environment. Tungsten is mostly red light, and deep underwater it's mostly blue light. Have you thought about testing the blue side of the sensors?
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Yes you are right that it's not the blue channel that will be starved under water if shooting non filtered. But we did not have any daylight or blue filtered light and to me it's quite easy to understand how a starved redchannel would behave instead of a starved blue channel. As the blue channel is the weakest on Cmos sensors you could state that a blue tinted shot would do better than a warm tinted shot with both of those cameras.

Brian Boyer said:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post but this was a test between Scarlet MX and Epic Dragon, not Epic MX and Scarlet Dragon.
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Yes its scarlet MX and epic dragon. But the Epic dragon settings where set to match the scarlet. so in a pixel to pixel look it's a valid test for epic MX as well. But yes I tried to make clear this is dragon sensor beating the MX sensor when it does not use more than the same pixels as the MX. Dragon got more pixels, more DR, Less noise and higher data rate so if if the test was done dragon as good as it gets at 6k vs scarlet mx at 4k the difference is about 30% bigger than you see in this test.
 
Thanks for your answer. I can see clearly the difference between the sensors, my question was about upgrading from Scarlet MX to Epic MX or to Scarlet dragon and what was your thoughts on that. If you were on that position you would go Scarlet Dragon or Epic MX? Image quality versus frame rates.
 
Image quality! Scarlet Dragon frame rates are not too far off from Epic MX anyways. Plus it gets cropped anyways. 60fps WS 5k on Scarlet Dragon is plenty in my book ;)
 
Thats one of the best tests I seen so far Björn.
Only comment would be that using ADD is maybe a bit "unfair" since it improves the details so much. Feels like you would need to treat the MX with a program like Neat Video and sharpen to get a similar comparison. ADD is of course super powerful to have.

But from what I can see I think the images are a lot better on Dragon. Much sharper, I'm looking at the text, the oven etc, great difference there.

/Andreas
 
okay cool not seeing much noise on your video (I have just heard that a ton of people who I work with in Atlanta have issues in the low light). Please tell me how bad was the noise thanks!!!!
 
Neil Dearman said:
(I have just heard that a ton of people who I work with in Atlanta have issues in the low light).
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Can you get them, your friends, to post their lens, fstop, lighting setups and some sample r3ds? That might be helpful.

Did they, your friends, file a support ticket?

i'd like to see some setups and stuff of what people are talking about. Bjorn, just shot this test with a candle and a practical (probably 40 watt bulb, and extracted these images.

You can get a hell of a lot out of this sensor so I really want to see what people are talking about.

Battistella
 
Guilherme Belchior Afonso said:
Thanks for your answer. I can see clearly the difference between the sensors, my question was about upgrading from Scarlet MX to Epic MX or to Scarlet dragon and what was your thoughts on that. If you were on that position you would go Scarlet Dragon or Epic MX? Image quality versus frame rates.
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It depends what you are after.... epic MX got the overcranked speeds and scarlet dragon got the new DR etc. I find it very difficult to pick one before the other... But I think getting the scarlet dragon is more "future proof" and I would rather get a scarlet dragon as a B cam to our epic dragon than a epic MX. Then the B cam would have the same DR and the limitation of Frame rate and sensor size, as it's not so often I need more than one camera doing highspeed....

The simple answer is ofcourse get the epic dragon, you will not regret it, as I think you will make the money back on rentals. But if it's for personal use only then such option is probably hard to justify.


Jacobo Martinez said:
ADD should not been used for this if we really wanted to compare the differences.
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Yes. I did not have much time to do this test so I went ADD only for the dragon but when I was fiddling around I did normal dragon compared to ADD and the difference was very slim. I thought the ADD would do much more so I acctually had to go back and double check that my ADD clip really was an ADD render. So with that in mind I think it's fair to say that this test is valid even without ADD. My guess is that ADD does not help much when it's this dark. As I done other ADD tests with brighter material and seen much more of a difference.
 
Jacobo Martinez said:
ADD should not been used for this if we really wanted to compare the differences.
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I'm not so sure, as it is a tool at our disposal with Dragon, but on the other hand the prohibitive render times do mean it's not an exact comparison. If the Dragon has the edge with extra tools in post then that has to be taken into consideration, even though I might say it's probably more designed with the stills photographer in mind, it can be applied to motion footage if one so desires.

Battistella
 
David Battistella said:
I'm not so sure, as it is a tool at our disposal with Dragon, but on the other hand the prohibitive render times do mean it's not an exact comparison. If the Dragon has the edge with extra tools in post then that has to be taken into consideration, even though I might say it's probably more designed with the stills photographer in mind, it can be applied to motion footage if one so desires.

Battistella
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I agree with you David.
So far I only used ADD for one motion production. It was a commercial for linen. White linnen falling against a black but textured background in super slomo... Not the easiest thing to light properly so there was a little bit of noise even though we had quite a bit of fill light. Any how for that particular setup ADD cleaned every trace of noise out and the 200fps stuff looked clean as clean could be.

And I come from the CG / compositing side of the pond... then 40 second per frame on a slow computer is nothing if it makes any kind of improvement. Personally I like the dragon noise even when it's quite visible as it looks very organic and film like but I would not hesitate a second to flip on ADD on any production even if it was longer format if I though it was a better option. So to me it's actually fair to compare dragon with ADD on. Anything else is a bit like racing two cars and one has the hand break lifted.

This test was done to see the worst of the dragon in comparison. The Dive team did not want to go 6k as they had the idea that 6k in combo with their tokina wide zoom would vinjet and go to far out in their domeport of the diving house. But I convinced them to not use the wide end of the zoom and go 6k... and by doing so clear through the dome port and lens and get the benefits of larger sensor more pixels etc.. Today they called me from the location and where super happy. "Dragon 6k looks like artistic paintings compared to what they normally use (scarlet 4k) that looks like a video camera in comparison...." I think that kind of says it all. Sensor size goes a long way, so does high pixel count and high DR.... when you toss them all on at once the difference is very visible even to my mom :)
 
Marcos Montenegro said:
Love the test, not the ultra fast text page changes ;)
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Sorry about that.. you need to have the mouse above the pause button, I did not want to make the clip to long as the guys wanted it uncompressed. :)
 
Björn Benckert said:
"Dragon 6k looks like artistic paintings compared to what they normally use (scarlet 4k) that looks like a video camera in comparison...." I think that kind of says it all. Sensor size goes a long way, so does high pixel count and high DR.... when you toss them all on at once the difference is very visible even to my mom :)
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This is true, depth of the images is quite remarkable. A big improvement over the previous gen and will only get better. :)

Battistella
 
Thanks Bjorn! Epic Dragon is very hard to justify for me. I rarely rent my camera, it´s more for personal use. Maybe i should rent more and gather money to go Epic Dragon. Actually that´s another reason to go Epic MX and later have the opportunity to upgrade to Dragon. Upgrading from Scarlet Dragon to Epic should be an option it would helps Scarlet users a lot.
 
Does anyone know when red will release the updated firmware that matches the images jarred showed of the new calibration? a few days? weeks? months?
 
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