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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon misconceptions and clarification...

My goal when I started RED was to make the best camera in the world.
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Yes you did it Jim, but the proof is not at RED Studios, or engineering definitions. The proof is on the screen anytime a "shot on RED" film is shown.
 
Brant Hadfield said:
I also believe you cannot achieve exactly the same thing in post, to replicate what that filter does optically. Nor can you add color information in the DI suite which wasn't recorded in the first place.
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Let's see, it's digital, it's all zeros and ones. Of course you can do it in POST. You could do it by hand if you had enough time!
 
It would be dope if we could snap on and off this optional "LOW CON" filter for the sensor. Maybe with magnets? Would that be possible?
 
It's interesting that people talk about the Alexa having a built in baked in look with their low-con filter but nobody talks about how the 'LOOK' of Red is in itself, a burnt in, baked in image. Red footage in its current state isn't a neutral image. It has a LOOK. I can spot Red footage in a heartbeat. Like a vintage wine. I can smell it. Red images do something in the mids and highs that other cameras don't do and for me and my eyes, it's a dead giveaway. I'm trying to stay as camera agnostic as possible these days but acting like Red is a completely neutral camera in its look seems silly to me. It's sensor by nature gives an inherent look that can't be removed or altered in post.
 
Rick Darge said:
It's sensor by nature gives an inherent look that can't be removed or altered in post.
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Nonsense. One could easily alter Red footage to look like an old B&W VHS tape is so desired.....etc. etc.

Just because people do not grade Red footage to look like film or something unusual does not
mean that it is not easy to do.

Have you seen what Film Convert can do with Red footage?

Red footage has been intermixed with film in major motion pictures
and no one can tell.
 
Rick Darge said:
It's interesting that people talk about the Alexa having a built in baked in look with their low-con filter but nobody talks about how the 'LOOK' of Red is in itself, a burnt in, baked in image. Red footage in its current state isn't a neutral image. It has a LOOK. I can spot Red footage in a heartbeat. Like a vintage wine. I can smell it. Red images do something in the mids and highs that other cameras don't do and for me and my eyes, it's a dead giveaway. I'm trying to stay as camera agnostic as possible these days but acting like Red is a completely neutral camera in its look seems silly to me. It's sensor by nature gives an inherent look that can't be removed or altered in post.
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Ok... I can challenge you on this.
Send me some ARRI Alexa images, and i'll shoot some EPIC images close to it and I will bet you I can match it in every way possible.
I have done this quiet often and not a single person can tell what image came from what camera... it's so so simple to match them.

It's easy to pull RED images back down to ARRI looks, but there is no way possible to bring ARRI images up to or look like RED... Resolution and data range alone let it down.
And do you know how many movies are shot with mixed formats, almost all of them... and the colourist and flame artist have to match it all together seamlessly.
And why do most special effects supervisors want RED EPIC cameras used for hi end special effects plates over the Arri Alexa... Its because they can do a lot more with RED images over the Arri, purely because of the extra information they have to be able to manipulate.

Question ... How can a 2.8k - 25.9 meg, 12 bit image from the Alexa and even worse, a HD or 2k PRORES with as little as 12meg per frame from the Alexa carry as much information as a 109meg 6k, 16bit image ?

Math always speaks the truth.
 
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I beg to strongly disagree with you...so much so that your post is the kind that really makes me want to retire. We have supported everyone and "everyone" is entitled to an opinion. But this comment makes me roll my eyes into oblivion. Really? Ugh. Shooting REDCODE RAW gives you so much flexibility and allows you to choose your "look". I have to say... your post exemplifies everything that turns my stomach. If there are many more posts like this... I am truly done. Snap. Over the edge. One of the two of us has this wrong. It must be me. I'm sure of it.

Jim

Rick Darge said:
It's interesting that people talk about the Alexa having a built in baked in look with their low-con filter but nobody talks about how the 'LOOK' of Red is in itself, a burnt in, baked in image. Red footage in its current state isn't a neutral image. It has a LOOK. I can spot Red footage in a heartbeat. Like a vintage wine. I can smell it. Red images do something in the mids and highs that other cameras don't do and for me and my eyes, it's a dead giveaway. I'm trying to stay as camera agnostic as possible these days but acting like Red is a completely neutral camera in its look seems silly to me. It's sensor by nature gives an inherent look that can't be removed or altered in post.
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Mark Toia said:
Question ... How can a 2.8k - 25.9 meg, 12 bit image from the Alexa and even worse, a HD or 2k PRORES with as little as 12meg per frame from the Alexa carry as much information as a 109meg 6k, 16bit image ?

Math always speaks the truth.
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Haha. Love this.
 
Jannard said:
I beg to strongly disagree with you...so much so that your post is the kind that really makes me want to retire. We have supported everyone and "everyone" is entitled to an opinion. But this comment makes me roll my eyes into oblivion. Really? Ugh. Shooting REDCODE RAW gives you so much flexibility and allows you to choose your "look". I have to say... your post exemplifies everything that turns my stomach. If there are many more posts like this... I am truly done. Snap. Over the edge. One of the two of us has this wrong. It must be me. I'm sure of it.

Jim
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Settle big boy, I think about 20,000 RED USERS have your back on this one...

and Ricks comment almost had me retiring !... man o man !
 
Heh. I guess I'm happy I don't have a short memory. I still remember for the day of lusting for 4K and raw flexibility.

Also, at this point I can make REDCODE do whatever I want it to do.

Heck, that's what I do for a living I guess.
 
Too bad we are all tempted to respond to those that are simply trolls. We've tested alexa, F65, epic, all on big budget features for many of the major studios.
I doubt this guy has, or he wouldn't have posted this. The alexa is the one with an often easy to spot 'look', blooming highlights (an a weird motion blur in our experience) that are a dead give away from the low con filter. We have had great success inter cutting both, with no one knowing the shots or elements that we captured on Epic for The Avengers or other mega budget films we've worked on. Jim - this guy is FOS or still using redspace - Its def not you.

greg

Hydraulx
 
I'm just saying, like LENSES, all sensors/cameras have their own unique baked in looks. I completely understand the importance of RAW and it's flexibility in post. All I am saying is that just because it is RAW, doesn't mean that it is neutral by any standard. Just like the way my eyeball views the world is probably very different to how your eyeball sees the world. I'm not saying one is bad or good, I'm just bringing up a valid point that if people are going to talk about "baked in looks" with other cameras, they have to also understand that even a RAW camera like the F65, Alexa or the Red, still has it's own characteristics when it comes to resolution, DR, halation, etc. etc. etc. - Media cards are neutral. Data is neutral. Switzerland is neutral.

Jannard said:
I beg to strongly disagree with you...so much so that your post is the kind that really makes me want to retire. We have supported everyone and "everyone" is entitled to an opinion. But this comment makes me roll my eyes into oblivion. Really? Ugh. Shooting REDCODE RAW gives you so much flexibility and allows you to choose your "look". I have to say... your post exemplifies everything that turns my stomach. If there are many more posts like this... I am truly done. Snap. Over the edge. One of the two of us has this wrong. It must be me. I'm sure of it.

Jim
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I've given MANY of my hard earned dollars to Red. I've supported Red. I still support Red. I am a working filmmaker that actually uses cameras on a daily basis. I'm far from a troll. If calling someone a troll because they want to have an open discussion or maybe offer some resistance to HIVE MIND thinking, then flame away. Call me what you want. But I know who I am.


Greg Strause said:
Too bad we are all tempted to respond to those that are simply trolls. We've tested alexa, F65, epic, all on big budget features for many of the major studios.
I doubt this guy has, or he wouldn't have posted this. The alexa is the one with an often easy to spot 'look', blooming highlights (an a weird motion blur in our experience) that are a dead give away from the low con filter. We have had great success inter cutting both, with no one knowing the shots or elements that we captured on Epic for The Avengers or other mega budget films we've worked on. Jim - this guy is FOS or still using redspace - Its def not you.

greg

Hydraulx
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Flame away on Redspace, even Redgamma2. But there is no baked in look. You could always make Raw look great once we had RedColor - back in the day you just had to know how to move it around. Once you had 16flt EXR with Redcolor2, the complaints should have ended on the look front. I have 14 epics - I earn my money with them too. i deal with all the BS of people preferring Alexa - selling me on why a big bulky 3k camera with less high speed capabilities is better. But stock out of the box the images line up well chroma wise - just that the Alexa is 3k and has a 'bloomy' baked in look that you can't remove.
 
Greg Strause said:
Flame away on Redspace, even Redgamma2. But there is no baked in look. You could always make Raw look great once we had RedColor - back in the day you just had to know how to move it around. Once you had 16flt EXR with Redcolor2, the complaints should have ended on the look front. I have 14 epics - I earn my money with them too. i deal with all the BS of people preferring Alexa - selling me on why a big bulky 3k camera with less high speed capabilities is better. But stock out of the box the images line up well chroma wise - just that the Alexa is 3k and has a 'bloomy' baked in look that you can't remove.
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Maybe it's just my eyes then because to me The Hobbit, 42, Spiderman, Every Soderbergh film shot on Red, all have a similar tone to them in the mid-tones, specifically in the flesh. There's a look there. Just like Alexa has a look that's very specific that Thor, Ironman, every other Marvel film all share. Just like how the 5D has a look. A very specific look. Sure you can change it and move it and flip it and reverse it, but it's always going to be there until we get cameras that have the Eye of Sauron for a sensor.
 
Rick Darge said:
Switzerland is neutral.
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Not quite...

But there is a difference between saying a camera has a look (like for a 5D) and saying you can smell a RED Epic image from 5 miles away. I think this last point is what got Jim's blood pressure up.

I choose the Epic because of the look it has "out of the box" but also because I can do what ever I want with it's RAW neg.

Pat
 
I've just worked with Red imagery so much over the past 5 years that I can tell when something was shot on Red. That's all I was conveying with that statement. I've shot with the 5D, Alexa and now the Blackmagic camera quite a bit that I can usually spot a commercial, music video or feature film when it has been shot on those cameras as well. I'm talking about the inherent nature that all camera sensors share, and that is a very specific response to color, light, and noise. Every camera has it's own STANK and to say that the Red cameras are completely free of this STANK seems counterproductive to me in the open discussion about this idea of filtration and baked in looks. But to each is his own
 
Rick Darge said:
I've just worked with Red imagery so much over the past 5 years that I can tell when something was shot on Red. That's all I was conveying with that statement. I've shot with the 5D, Alexa and now the Blackmagic camera quite a bit that I can usually spot a commercial, music video or feature film when it has been shot on those cameras as well. I'm talking about the inherent nature that all camera sensors share, and that is a very specific response to color, light, and noise. Every camera has it's own STANK and to say that the Red cameras are completely free of this STANK seems counterproductive to me in the open discussion about this idea of filtration and baked in looks. But to each is his own a
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Ok. So your eye is really well trained and you have first grade reference monitor to watch the movies. You should start a color grading business.

I often want to play the "what camera is it?" game and sit until the end of the credits. I must admit that I am often surprised by how wrong I was. Because post-production is also a big factor in mixing the cards. Not even speaking about the projection quality. When you see a 2k DCP today, it's getting hard to distinguish 5k from a HD original. There fore I find you assessment presumptious to be able to determine wich highend camera is used from it's look.

Pat
 
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