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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon misconceptions and clarification...

Jannard

Jannard

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Let’s see if we can clear up some Dragon misconceptions.

1. The native Dragon sensor clearly shows 18+ stops shot on our Frankie test bed last December which was posted. Obviously, we were excited out of our skull. Stuffing the sensor’s capability into an electronics package the size of a matchbox always causes loss of performance. That is why we stuck with 3-4 stops of improvement over the EPIC MX. We always measure dynamic range with the engineering definition… as do most others. We said repeatedly 16 stops for EPIC Dragon, which is more than any other digital cinema camera. We stick by this statement… even though we see continuing improvements over time, just as we have always done. For free.

2. If you want 20 stops of dynamic range… shoot EPIC Dragon HDRx 4.

3. We do not incorporate a low contrast filter inside our camera as does the Alexa. While it does soften roll off, we think the user should have control of that aspect of the image. Add a 1/4 LowCon and match that characteristic if you like it. Since many seem to be lost on this point, we are now looking at adding a low-con LP filter option which you can change out with your original. It certainly gives the appearance of more dynamic range because the rolloff “blooms” or softens the transition. It is a baked in look however if it is done in camera. Maybe someone should make a post filter?

4. I recently posted that the Dragon was “insert the highest superlative known to man here”. Of course I have taken a lot of flack for being a hype-monster over this quote (and a few others). Maybe that moniker is well deserved… or maybe I’m just being proud of the team’s real accomplishments. You make the call. In defensive of my statement, which I will reiterate now, I offer the following:

The Dragon has more native dynamic range than any motion capture camera ever made as measured by the standard engineering definition… signal to noise ratio. And it does it with the least amount of noise.

The Dragon outputs more measured resolution than any motion capture camera. That includes a 4K scan of 65mm film or the Sony F65. Notice I didn’t say captured resolution… I said measured resolution.

The Dragon shoots 100fps at 6K. Good, cheap and fast. Pick all three.

The color depth of the Dragon was increased to 16 bit. New Graeme color science. Skin tones.

We have a thousand knobs to turn to extract more performance from the Dragon’s electronic package, just as we did with the RED ONE and EPIC MX. You remember, it was a “new camera for free” several times. If you are not familiar with this… ask any long term RED customer.

The Dragon is an upgrade to EPIC… one of the smallest, lightest and most accessorized cameras in the cinema industry. You don’t have to buy a new camera to get Dragon.

You can shoot REDCODE RAW on Dragon at an incredibly high compression ratio and get incredible results. That means your SSDs are not obsolete. You really want to shoot uncompressed or RGB?

Now… if you want to debate a single point, feel free. Then I would ask you to look at the total package above and tell me why I can’t retire tomorrow having delivered what was promised… for less than $10K.

My goal when I started RED was to make the best camera in the world. The most important showcase for image capture is the motion picture industry. Check.

I am old. I am tired. I started Oakley 38 years ago. RED 7 years ago. In both cases my goal was to make a difference. To declare war on conventional thinking. Inventions wrapped in art. Dedicated to purpose beyond reason. Thermonuclear Protection.

I have had the chance to work with the most incredible people for so many years… both at Oakley and at RED. Too many people to mention… except one. Jarred Land. To release the Dragon with my closest buddy is a dream come true. I really don’t think I can ever top it. We’ll see.

God love us all.

Jim
 
Last edited:
Jannard said:
Let’s see if we can clear up some Dragon misconceptions.

1. The native Dragon sensor clearly shows 18+ stops shot on our Frankie test bed last December which was posted. Obviously, we were excited out of our skull. Stuffing the sensor’s capability into an electronics package the size of a matchbox always causes loss of performance. That is why we stuck with 3-4 stops of improvement over the EPIC MX. We always measure dynamic range with the engineering definition… as do most others. We said repeatedly 16 stops for EPIC Dragon, which is more than any other digital cinema camera. We stick by this statement… even though we see continuing improvements over time, just as we have always done. For free.

2. If you want 20 stops of dynamic range… shoot EPIC Dragon HDRx 4.

3. We do not incorporate a low contrast filter inside our camera as does the Alexa. While it does soften roll off, we think the user should have control of that aspect of the image. Add a 1/4 LowCon and match that characteristic if you like it. Since many seem to be lost on this point, we are now looking at adding a low-con LP filter option which you can change out with your original. It certainly gives the appearance of more dynamic range because the rolloff “blooms” or softens the transition. It is a baked in look however if it is done in camera. Maybe someone should make a post filter?

4. I recently posted that the Dragon was “insert the highest superlative known to man here”. Of course I have taken a lot of flack for being a hype-monster over this quote (and a few others). Maybe that moniker is well deserved… or maybe I’m just being proud of the team’s real accomplishments. You make the call. In defensive of my statement, which I will reiterate now, I offer the following:

The Dragon has more native dynamic range than any motion capture camera ever made as measured by the standard engineering definition… signal to noise ratio. And it does it with the least amount of noise.

The Dragon outputs more measured resolution than any motion capture camera. That includes a 4K scan of 65mm film or the Sony F65. Notice I didn’t say captured resolution… I said measured resolution.

The Dragon shoots 100fps at 6K. Good, cheap and fast. Pick all three.

The color depth of the Dragon was increased to 16 bit. New Graeme color science. Skin tones.

We have a thousand knobs to turn to extract more performance from the Dragon’s electronic package, just as we did with the RED ONE and EPIC MX. You remember, it was a “new camera for free” several times. If you are not familiar with this… ask any long term RED customer.

The Dragon is an upgrade to EPIC… one of the smallest, lightest and most accessorized cameras in the cinema industry. You don’t have to buy a new camera to get Dragon.

You can shoot REDCODE RAW on Dragon at an incredibly high compression ratio and get incredible results. That means your SSDs are not obsolete. You really want to shoot uncompressed or RGB?

Now… if you want to debate a single point, feel free. Then I would ask you to look at the total package above and tell me why I can’t retire tomorrow having delivered what was promised… for less than $10K.

My goal when I started RED was to make the best camera in the world. The most important showcase for image capture is the motion picture industry. Check.

I am old. I am tired. I started Oakley 38 years ago. RED 7 years ago. In both cases my goal was to make a difference. To declare war on conventional thinking. Inventions wrapped in art. Dedicated to purpose beyond reason. Thermonuclear Protection.

I have had the chance to work with the most incredible people for so many years… both at Oakley and at RED. Too many people to mention… except one. Jarred Land. To release the Dragon with my closet buddy is a dream come true. I really don’t think I can ever top it. We’ll see.

God love us all.

Jim
Click to expand...

Jim, you the man. Can't wait to get my hands on Dragon. You have done as much to change cinema as any man over the past 50 years. KUDOS.
 
Jannard said:
The color depth of the Dragon was increased to 16 bit. New Graeme color science. Skin tones.
Click to expand...

Wonderful!!!

Dragon has got enough measured resolution and dynamic range as two very important parts of IQ (Image Quality).

Hopefully that the new Graeme color science and skin tones will improve and follow pretty soon the two other parts of IQ that were mentioned above.
 
There is no doubt that you gentlemen advanced Cinema for the benefit of everyone in the film industry and continue to do so.
 
You have had a great run Jim. As someone who was self employed for 30+ years in the manufacturing business I can truly appreciate how many "bet the farm" decisions you have made . . . correctly. Maybe it's time to leave the Casino with your winning hand. Conventional wisdom would suggest that course. But then . . . who thinks like that ;-)
 
In my opinion, I think it would be wise for all of us to be patient and wait for the official role out of footage (in R3D form) and start to form our opinions when there is software to process it. I mentioned this on another forum, and I think it is appropriate to mention here as well. When making an informed analysis of image quality, there are 4 things that are required.

1. Camera originals
2. Proper tools for the playback and manipulation of said footage (in this case, the new version of Redcine-X and subsequently 3rd party implementation of new color science)
3. Calibrated viewing environment capable of displaying the full potential of the footage (uncalibrated computer monitors, or even poorly calibrated broadcast monitors don't qualify)
4. Analysis tools such as scopes and image data tools

A compressed MP4, although a glimpse into what Dragon may offer, really does not offer the full story. Therefore, some of the negative comments I have seen on various places around the internet are in my opinion missing the mark. When RED is comfortable and ready to deliver production ready cameras and software, that is when I think these conversations really begin in earnest. Until then, we are just left doing a lot of guesswork, which means very little in the real world. Mark's test footage achieved what he was going after. Where does the sensor break. One series of tests, not the end of story. I wish people could understand that. Then again, we are all eager to know what it's capable of, so I understand people jumping the gun in their analysis. Human nature I guess.
 
Jim, I think once the world really hears the mighty Dragon roar, you may not need to say a word. For every bridge we build, there's a about a half dozen ferry boat captains and crew wanting to tear it down, some folks don't like change, especially when it in any way threatens their lifestyles. It's called progress. There will be a few vocal naysayers, but I have a feeling their motivations and actions are for calculated effect, don't take the bait. The competition is fierce and the battle is escalating.
Thank you for fighting a war on mediocrity and conventional thinking. Thank you for not settling for less than what you can imagine, it has opened a giant door for all of us to follow suit, and of course angry are those few who were already inside first, and the bouncer collecting at the door, he needs to find a new job, yesterday.
 
"size of a matchbox"

I am currently sitting at the airport catching up on Reduser and heading out to kick off a feature overseas. Being able to travel all by myself with two Epic bodies and lenses in my carry-on is a true blessing. Thanks Jim, Jarred and the Red Team for making the impossible, possible.
Can't wait to travel with Dragons. =)

airport.jpg
 
Jannard said:
3. We do not incorporate a low contrast filter inside our camera as does the Alexa. While it does soften roll off, we think the user should have control of that aspect of the image. Add a 1/4 LowCon and match that characteristic if you like it. Since many seem to be lost on this point, we are now looking at adding a low-con LP filter option which you can change out with your original. It certainly gives the appearance of more dynamic range because the rolloff “blooms” or softens the transition. It is a baked in look however if it is done in camera. Maybe someone should make a post filter?
Click to expand...
I really like your approach, in nuke there are one or two nodes built in that do low-con and softening. Another cost saver by doing it in post is it mixes the vfx with the raw footage in a more seamless way, which saves time and looks better.
 
I can't ever imagine retiring, but I've never made my life as meaningful or worked as hard as Jim.

The addition of a low-con LP filter option is a good idea; " ...we are now looking at adding a low-con LP filter option which you can change out with your original. It certainly gives the appearance of more dynamic range because the rolloff “blooms” or softens the transition. It is a baked in look however if it is done in camera. "
 
Jannard said:
I started Oakley 38 years ago. RED 7 years ago. In both cases my goal was to make a difference. To declare war on conventional thinking. Inventions wrapped in art. Dedicated to purpose beyond reason.
Click to expand...

You've achieved your goal and nobody can ever take that away from you. Much respect.

RED is quite an interesting company in so many regards.... can you imagine the founder or CEO of Sony, Arri or Canon personally address questions in forums ?

Don't let them get on your nerves... deep down, they all know what you've done for the industry.
 
I'm so stoked you started all this!

Taking the step from 8bit on Sony FS cameras and Canon DSLR's to RED has been absolutely fantastic! The jump in image quality has been so clear to our clients, even just watching early drafts over the web. Redcode is incredible. The red workflow is in many ways easier than DSLR (no more transcoding to 10 bit Cineform before editing) Looking forward to seeing the Dragon get out there in a big way soon.
 
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