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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon misconceptions and clarification...

Bravo Jim Jannard. What you, Jarred, Graeme and the rest of the Red Digital Cinema team did was to give artists a tool to create art like they never were capable before. Its not only a "Hollywood" camera, its a camera that is making even the smaller artist capable of amazing imagery, beyond certain elitism and protectionism of the "higher end". You guys created a tool that allows for the artists to trully be able to show what they are capable of. One thing I know for a fact why so many dislike Red is what they did to the "outsiders"- it allowed them to "get in", and to give them a run for their money. You guys not only created a breakthrough in camera technology, but also hammered the status quo. This creates some enemies, but I assure you, the true artists, the ones that had to struggle , the indies, the "auteurs", the ones that like pushing boundaries and no bulshit love you guys.

This is indeed "it" in terms of the ultimate Cinema Package, however, Jim, Jarred, Graeme, and Red Team, this shouldn't be the end: DIgital Cinema Requires constant evolution. Red has to be here to stay!

Congratulations from the other side of the world. Keep rocking keep pushing forward, keep innovating and changing the cinema world. There's still much to do! You guys bought Element Technica. What else could you change in our Cinema World? Think about it.
 
...which makes me wonder - at what age does one lose passion for what they love doing? Looks like, but I hope not, Jim is ready to walk off into the sunset as the RED Dragon cranes up to see into his long shadows and the highlights of the golden sun.
 
Yup.

I feel like people come in here and call it hype, when its just that we follow your work so closely, we are genuinely pleased and excited for you and the whole team. I have always seen it as you sharing your excitement, the way you want to tell a friend good news.

You have created many friends here and I consider myself and many others one of them.

Ignore the flack, many people care and appreciate all that is happening here.

David
 
Jannard said:
We said repeatedly 16 stops for EPIC Dragon, which is more than any other digital cinema camera.
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It's dynamic range, Jim, but not as we know it.

Jannard said:
We do not incorporate a low contrast filter inside our camera as does the Alexa.
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So much for the alleged magic sauce behind the Alexa.

I love Arri overall, but their digital cameras are just not deserving of any praise. So, okay, all you have to do is to place a particular filter over the sensor, in addition to the OLPF, and you can make people forget its huge limitations? Well, didn't Giorgio Armani say that "price is a feature"? I'd rather shoot 16mm.

Jannard said:
The Dragon outputs more measured resolution than any motion capture camera. That includes a 4K scan of 65mm film
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I don't understand. Why is this being pointed to as something important? Isn't it obvious that a 6K sensor will out-resolve a 4K scan of any frame of film, even a 16x20" sheet??

Jannard said:
The Dragon shoots 100fps at 6K. Good, cheap and fast. Pick all three.
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Put this sensor in a Sony NEX-like body, give me 4fps and charge accordingly. Deal?

Jannard said:
You can shoot REDCODE RAW on Dragon at an incredibly high compression ratio and get incredible results. That means your SSDs are not obsolete. You really want to shoot uncompressed or RGB?
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It makes me wonder why still cameras continue to insist on non-wavelet RAW.

And while we're on the subject of conventions which will (or should) never resurrect, can we stop with the three letter file extensions? At least four from now on. E.g. file.abcd instead of file.abc. Nobody will ever, ever need that kind of compatibility anymore. That's what I like about TIFF, JPEG, IBLM, AIFF etc. When I send out JPEG files to clients, I always make the extensions as .jpeg, not .jpg. My temple shall not be polluted.

Michael Ou said:
Thank you for fighting a war on mediocrity and conventional thinking.
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Well said, and so true. Except for the fact that we shouldn't fight against mediocrity, but strive towards excellence and encourage others to do so. I'm not anti-war, I'm pro-peace. I'm not anti-poverty, I'm pro-abundance. Etc.
 
I complain about a lot of things but owning our Reds actually changed Amber's and my life, significantly for the better. It leveled the playing field in a way that gave us a real leg up. I'm sure we're not alone. You didn't waste your time Jim. Thank you.
 
Thank you Jim.

I mentioned to Jarred recently that to this day you are really making the only camera I enjoy shooting with, and for me a camera I desired for some time even before it's conception.

This isn't really a hype concept, spin, or fan boy-ism. I appreciate the hard work and efforts at everybody at Red.

I haven't had the time to ask you in person what led you to founding Red and sort of pushing 4K likely years ahead of when we would have likely seen it. But one of these days I hope to have a semi-casual yet somewhat journalistic conversation on the history of this whole thing.

There's a great deal of historic relevance to Dragon. From a motion picture perspective that's a pretty visible thing. Skeptics and criticism are pretty much always going to be a part of this. Focusing on what the tools can do and pushing them to their extremes tends to yield the best results for the shooter all the way down to the viewer. I wish more could see that concept and apply it.

Heh. That might be a bit too off the cuff.

Don't know exactly what I've done right or wrong in my life, but I've been able to witness film grow into a mature format and digital progress into the dominating format exceeding films potential from sort of a "working while doing" perspective. Whatever all that chaos has been has led me to being a Red shooter. And I've used everything else. More than happy to shoot with your gear. Keep paving that road.
 
Holy crap Jim don't even think of retiring. We need you. You have built the best owner/operator cinema camera ever devised. Red is also the most entertaining and only occasionally annoying company I have ever done business with. I have bought two film cameras, two video cameras and two digital cameras and your Californian individualism is utterly refreshing compared to the monoliths I have given money to in the past. You are not old although you probably need a holiday. Jim keep kicking butt.
 
I am really, really excited about the idea of the Red-provided low contrast filter. There seems to be two broad groups of tastes, and I happen to fall into the one that likes the smoother, rounded-off look. The industry, or the largest segment of the market, may lean that way too, arguably. Thanks for taking a serious look at that option I can bake-in, without having to hang another heavy piece of glass out in front of the lens!
I really look forward to seeing what the full potential of Dragon's color depth really is too.
 
You the hard-worked man Jim ! since the the Red one camera the company has made revolution in digital cinema & film industry.
 
Jannard said:
Let’s see if we can clear up some Dragon misconceptions.

1. The native Dragon sensor clearly shows 18+ stops shot on our Frankie test bed last December which was posted. Obviously, we were excited out of our skull. Stuffing the sensor’s capability into an electronics package the size of a matchbox always causes loss of performance. That is why we stuck with 3-4 stops of improvement over the EPIC MX. We always measure dynamic range with the engineering definition… as do most others. We said repeatedly 16 stops for EPIC Dragon, which is more than any other digital cinema camera. We stick by this statement… even though we see continuing improvements over time, just as we have always done. For free.

2. If you want 20 stops of dynamic range… shoot EPIC Dragon HDRx 4.

3. We do not incorporate a low contrast filter inside our camera as does the Alexa. While it does soften roll off, we think the user should have control of that aspect of the image. Add a 1/4 LowCon and match that characteristic if you like it. Since many seem to be lost on this point, we are now looking at adding a low-con LP filter option which you can change out with your original. It certainly gives the appearance of more dynamic range because the rolloff “blooms” or softens the transition. It is a baked in look however if it is done in camera. Maybe someone should make a post filter?

4. I recently posted that the Dragon was “insert the highest superlative known to man here”. Of course I have taken a lot of flack for being a hype-monster over this quote (and a few others). Maybe that moniker is well deserved… or maybe I’m just being proud of the team’s real accomplishments. You make the call. In defensive of my statement, which I will reiterate now, I offer the following:

The Dragon has more native dynamic range than any motion capture camera ever made as measured by the standard engineering definition… signal to noise ratio. And it does it with the least amount of noise.

The Dragon outputs more measured resolution than any motion capture camera. That includes a 4K scan of 65mm film or the Sony F65. Notice I didn’t say captured resolution… I said measured resolution.

The Dragon shoots 100fps at 6K. Good, cheap and fast. Pick all three.

The color depth of the Dragon was increased to 16 bit. New Graeme color science. Skin tones.

We have a thousand knobs to turn to extract more performance from the Dragon’s electronic package, just as we did with the RED ONE and EPIC MX. You remember, it was a “new camera for free” several times. If you are not familiar with this… ask any long term RED customer.

The Dragon is an upgrade to EPIC… one of the smallest, lightest and most accessorized cameras in the cinema industry. You don’t have to buy a new camera to get Dragon.

You can shoot REDCODE RAW on Dragon at an incredibly high compression ratio and get incredible results. That means your SSDs are not obsolete. You really want to shoot uncompressed or RGB?

Now… if you want to debate a single point, feel free. Then I would ask you to look at the total package above and tell me why I can’t retire tomorrow having delivered what was promised… for less than $10K.

My goal when I started RED was to make the best camera in the world. The most important showcase for image capture is the motion picture industry. Check.

I am old. I am tired. I started Oakley 38 years ago. RED 7 years ago. In both cases my goal was to make a difference. To declare war on conventional thinking. Inventions wrapped in art. Dedicated to purpose beyond reason. Thermonuclear Protection.

I have had the chance to work with the most incredible people for so many years… both at Oakley and at RED. Too many people to mention… except one. Jarred Land. To release the Dragon with my closet buddy is a dream come true. I really don’t think I can ever top it. We’ll see.

God love us all.

Jim
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And still some idiot will come back and challenge you on this...

Since I'm one of very few that has tasted DRAGON, I understand every word...

And also people shouldn't forget, if it wasn't for you and your REDONE hype machine... We would all still be shooting HD. And if 4k did eventuate, Sony would be ripping us a new arse hole with the price.

Well done.

PS. Regarding the low pass fitler option, I'll leave mine as is, I'll decide when I want that flat highlight look or a pinged highlight in post, takes 2 seconds to do, its to hard to go backwards.... But good decision to offer both.
 
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Thanks for shaking up the industry for us! :biggrin:

Think you've more than earned a sabbatical!
 
Tom Gleeson said:
Holy crap Jim don't even think of retiring. We need you. You have built the best owner/operator cinema camera ever devised. Red is also the most entertaining and only occasionally annoying company I have ever done business with. I have bought two film cameras, two video cameras and two digital cameras and your Californian individualism is utterly refreshing compared to the monoliths I have given money to in the past. You are not old although you probably need a holiday. Jim keep kicking butt.
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I second the motion [finesse the retiring thing -- we need you, Jim] ! Also, as far as Jim's statements being hype, I'm going with " ... no brag, just fact**."
Finally. I'm looking forward to RED's next audacious effort, which I'll call "Kraken."

I'm not a professional, just shoot for my family and myself. You give us much more than 4K or even 6K, you give us memories in .R3D

Keep on RED !
Serge & family


**http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j1qkorFszY
 
THANK YOU JIM. Can't wait for my DRAGON.
 
As great and smooth as clean (w/o the lowcon) Dragon footage is, I can see a number of shooters choosing the lowcon LP filter option. "The other camera" with that filter built-in has reputation of "easy as hell, get the footage straight from the set with a LUT and here we go" or some along the lines. For those of us who don't have time for tweaking too much in post or whatever, that filter coupled with clearly superior native latitude and cleaner color channels of Dragon sensor will make all the difference. Everything about this upgrade program seems a win and step forward to me.
 
No worries from us Jim. Already waiting for the upgrade on both our Epic M's.

You've changed everything in this industry. Something to be proud of...you have left an indelible mark.
 
Jim and RED team, you guys change the game 7 years ago everybody else have to follow, now with dragon you really went to another level, if everything stop here, will be very happy shooting with dragon for ever....
 
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