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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON - ITS THE REAL DEAL !!!!

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Mark,

Thank you so much for putting all the time into this post for RU. Much appreciated, we all owe you a beer when we run into you.

:cheers2:
 
NIce
 
can´t follow the discussion about the highlights here - we have pushed to iso 4000 shots here, ... anyone remember ?
 
Amazing !!! Looks like 17:1 is like the old 8:1 !?
 
Jan Reiff said:
can´t follow the discussion about the highlights here - we have pushed to iso 4000 shots here, ... anyone remember ?
Click to expand...

Maybe we should remind this quote aswell
Mark Toia said:
Hi Guys...

Both Jarred and Jim know that I don't pull many punches. So for them to send me their camera, must mean that they are extremely confident in the new sensors capabilities.
But lets be serious for a second, I'm not expecting miracles, like having noise free images at 10,000ASA or 20+ stops of DR, thats just plain silly.
But that said, my expectations are high and I'm going into this test with an open mind.

And to be clear... Jarred and Jim have not in anyway way asked me or pressured me or made me sign any crazy letters saying that I have to only say good things.
Jarred is not sending the camera with a team of techs, lawyers (and hit men) to make sure I shoot and say exactly the way they want
Jarred has pretty much sent it to me to test with no strings attached knowing that I will probably share my no BS testing with you all.
That said... I'm not going to be a dick !. I will share my views and the real world advantages that I require for my shooting style. I'm not going to crap on about pixels and colour sciences as that's best left for the pixel peeping nerds to fight over.

I'm going to push the camera to its extreme limits in 3 areas that I'd personally like to see a real difference in.

1. Hi ISO low light noise, just how useable is 2000iso, 4000iso and upwards, 6k will obviously yield the best results, especially when down-converted to HD... but what about 5k & 4k... Say if I want to shoot 150 to 200FPS slo-motion at night in low light, can I do that with less noise ? How much cleaner is this sensor compared to the last.

2. I'll be shooting a lot of hi contrast scenes, I really want to know exactly how much useable information can i retrieve out of a shot that maybe up to 10 - 12 stops between bright sunlight and dark shadows. Will I be able to see the difference straight up or do I have to window out what I need and pull up in the grade. Either which way, I'll be putting a lot of time into this part of the test.

3. We all know that all Digital cameras (yes Arri included) loose information in the very bright highlights. I'm just wondering how much information is actually hiding within these blown out highlights and can I retrieve any of it. Or better yet, If I expose only for those highlights, how much info can I dig out of the rest of the shot that maybe now in darkness. Shooting silver cars in the middle of the day in bright sunlight is not easy on any sensor. Lets see what we can get.
The monochrome was amazing in this test, I'm hoping the Dragon will equal it.

The Skin color argument over the years was absolute bullshit. I've never had the issue, never seen the issue. I've shot more shades and tones of skin than most people due to my global travels... and still yet to see the problem. I will be shooting some faces, but not for this reason.

I'll be very happy if the technology leap is as high as what it was between the first REDONE M 4k sensor and the current EPIC - MX 5k, that was quite a leap...

That all said, I applaud Jarred & Jim's confidence in loaning their baby to someone like me as I'm not a technical tester, or an academy award winner, I'm more the real world guy that travels the planet smashing out project after project. My needs are heavy and diverse and I'm spoilt for choice, I don't have budget problems so I can afford any camera I want and so far the RED EPIC has ticked more boxes for me than any other camera on the market today. The Dragon sensor upgrade should take it to the next level, and thats what I'm excited about seeing over the next week.

But at the end of the day I'm just like one of you, out there pushing the camera to the limits each day wanting to know that for $9500 dollars, will I then be armed with the best tool technology can offer me for the best price, heading well into the future.

I'll get back to you soon.

Cheers Guys.
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Mark,

Two days with a DRAGON... So you had to give it back?
 
yes, as mark stated he wanted to see the extreme situations and to test it - with this range especially in the shadows, there should not be any problem to avoid clipping in a professional shoot ...
 
Why are so many people complaining about the highlights..? :facepalm:

Martin Stevens said:
I couldn't resist. Even though I dislike highlight clipping, these particular photos are easily fixed with a simple grade.

View attachment 41183


View attachment 41184
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Thank you Martin... Now imagine if you got to do this off the RAW!!

Some people need to be spoon-fed (sorry if I sound a bit frustrated, but I am) It is called grading, and Mark didn't do almost any, for which we are grateful since now we can get a sense of what the camera spits out before we get to sculpt it. There's also lo-con filters, which I doubt he used much if at all (Did you Toia?)

If you've never truly graded you will have to wait. Wait till a few fully-produced videos come out; this is not for you. And for the time being, trust us, you will be S-T-O-K-E-D!!

Nothing but <3
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
Why are so many people complaining about the highlights..? :facepalm:
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+1

The highlights are beautiful.


I know I'm late to the party here, but just wanted to shout out a big thanks to Mark Toia for taking the time to do this. I can't wait to send off my cameras for the upgrade. I'd send of my EPIC-M yesterday if I could!
 
The Apocalypse Now GRADE

The Apocalypse Now GRADE

Please forgive the Grade, but here is my "Apocalypse Now" style grade.

DRAGON_still_with Grade_01C.jpg
 
Im struggling to work out what the issue is here. Those images look great to me. If you clip an image its clipped, any camera will do that and I think that what mark was checkin out. Ajust the iris accordingly and its fixed. The data below the highlight is where the magic seems to be and that all looks very good in these tests. With the improved exposure in latitude theres plenty room in the shadow areas to avoid ending up against the end stops in the highlights.

I for one was impressed.
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
Why are so many people complaining about the highlights..? :facepalm:



Thank you Martin... Now imagine if you got to do this off the RAW!!

Some people need to be spoon-fed (sorry if I sound a bit frustrated, but I am) It is called grading, and Mark didn't do almost any, for which we are grateful since now we can get a sense of what the camera spits out before we get to sculpt it. There's also lo-con filters, which I doubt he used much if at all (Did you Toia?)

If you've never truly graded you will have to wait. Wait till a few fully-produced videos come out; this is not for you. And for the time being, trust us, you will be S-T-O-K-E-D!!

Nothing but <3
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A lot of (wrong) assumptions there Roberto...

Yes I have graded tons of footage, including Red, Alexa, DSLRs, Film, etc... I know what clipping is and I know you can't get it back in the grade, that's why it is a big issue and that's why I asked Martin how he did it, because if he photoshop'd it, he cheated. This is moving images not stills! But if not, I would love to know how he did it.

I'm not saying that the clipped highlights in Mark's tests are ruining Dragon, they are not. It's just that it's how an image is perceived in terms of quality, how it handles the two extremes, light and shadow. And clipping seems to be at the moment a bigger issue than the noisy shadows of the Dragon. I know Mark's tests are pushing the Dragon to the limit, but regarding clipped highlights has nothing to do with pushing or not pushing, it has to do with the architecture of the sensor. Clipping makes an image look bad, its not a creative choice, its a technical glitch. It is also the MAIN reason it is keeping very high profile DPs from using Red, and because I love Red's image, I get frustrated as to why this is still an issue, when clearly other cameras have solved this.

Here's an example of what a sunset should look like without clipping. This is the most similar to Mark's shot I found. I believe this footage is probably graded, but I wouldn't know as I just found it Googlin'. But it doesn't matter anyway, because a clipped highlight is always a clipped highlight, you can't get it back, its a glitch, nada, zero information there. And notice how there is still information in the couple's shadows, meaning that it is not exposed just for the sun.


There's no bleeding, no CA and most of all there is a pleasing and gradual rolloff. To a lot of people this might not be important, or not even see the difference, but to most DP's this is where you really judge a digital image. Of course, there are a lot of ways to go around this problem, but still it bugs me that we still have to shoot around this problem when Dragon arrives.

If clipped highlights are an issue for you, check this sample of Red (Epic), Alexa and F55 shot of the sun test, its revealing. If not, just ignore my post altogether.
 
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Thanks Mark for doing these tests and posting. We all appreciate the time you put in.

A couple observations.

1) I noticed from a prior screenshot that everything was processed with RG3/RC3. Is there not a new color science that was available in the RCX alpha or beta they gave you?

2) Regarding the shot of the white car and it's interior dash... Were those spot meter readings or incident readings? F4 to F32 is only 6 stops difference.

Can't wait to have a Dragon and put it through it's paces. Hoping for improved color science and highlights like everyone else...
 
i can't believe i am getting sucked into this silly discussion....mark made it clear what he was trying to do and judging a sensor on compressed footage never made any sense to me....
there are 2 ways to shoot a sunset and from what mark has said about dragon and what the footage shows me is that i would expose for the highlight and open up the shadows.....this is how i shoot with my still cameras and dragon seems to blow this out of the water....so consider me sold....
CA has nothing to do with sensor but with lenses and that brings me to my next point....every lens i have draws highlight roll off slightly different...even at different f-stops....
i don't see any problems here and nothing tells me in any way that i should be worried about upgrading...the opposite is the case: we are looking at about 16 stops of DR at a much wider (and starting lower, yeah!) range of iso, better compression and 100 100+mb TIFFs stills per sec....
 
i do not see anything in this Alexa shot you couldn´t achieve with an Epic honestly - i made lots of sunsets like this on Epics, and with the Raw and right exposure you get the same ...
in this case and what i saw from Mark i think on dragon will be much more in the shadows as in the sunset shot
 
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