DRAGON - ITS THE REAL DEAL !!!! - (PART 2)

[Robert Ruffo New]

But still, you would agree that this came off pretty well for quick and dirty test footage, no? I'm pretty sure you are not suggesting Mark can't get a proper skin tone, so I am assuming you are not laying the blame for the "bad skin" on Mark, correct?

Rob, I think you are like those people who are known as a "Nose" for sniffing perfume or a "Palette" for tasting wine or cheese. I think you have proved that you have brain/eye coordination that well exceeds the norm.

Thanks for pointing out these flaws that the rest of us cannot see.

I'm not blaming Mark - he specifically avoided sophisticated grades with secondaries so we could see performance of the new camera is a purer state - I am hoping that Dragon will be a little more refined in this regard when its' released and the new color science is ready. I don't know about exceeding the norm, but my clients pay for immense effort, attention and care placed on tiny details. I think everyone can see these things at an unconscious level - the image simply has slightly less impact to them, although maybe not everyone could describe why.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Rob, with regards to the anaemic skin tones, I'm seeing the same thing you are.

Its due to a too weak curve being applied to REDlogFilm footage, which in turn isn't accurately placing the log values where they need to be to properly de-log REDlogFilm. This is most apparent on well modelled skin as it occupies a large slice of the log range. If the curve isn't right, a large portion of the skin is left quite flat and most of it will be left rather desaturated. Apply the correct curve, or even just a slightly sharper curve and not only will the values be closer to where they need to be, but the sharper curve will also bump the image saturation. Both of these lead to more traditionally pleasing skin tones.

Mark mentioned this exactly, stating that he took the footage into RCX for "a very basic curve which was applied to a RED LOG film setting".

This isn't really a wrong way of doing it, in fact it's probably the best way to show the entire range captured by the camera. As a basic, less aggressive curve means there is limited compression to the information in the shadows and highlights, which better shows off the entire captured range. After all, showing the entire range of the sensor was the main goal behind the stress test, correct?

This is actually the workflow used in a lot of low-con, desaturated grades on TVCs etc. As its easier to create your own custom curve for log gamma images that places the values and contrast where you want it. Rather than starting from a standard log2video curve and trying to work back from there.

I'm happy to put up some examples that illustrate what I'm talking about...

I'm familiar with what you explain, and you could be very right.

 

[Mark Toia]

I'm not blaming Mark -

But you should...

Boys, boys, boys... Don't blame the camera for "my" very basic grading. Thats just silly.

Your comments shouldn't be founded entirely from a H264 quicktime... which personally looks a little flat compared to my original source files.
As we all know, when you compress something that is 36gig in size down to 250meg... you will loose information, shades, colors and tones. Thats a fact.

So adding more saturation to a face do you honestly think is a big issue... ? Nope.
Do you guys create content where you don't finial grade any of your work ? , is this why your asking for absolute perfection straight out of the box ? so you don't need to grade?
I usually put everything through a Hi end grading tool... but not this, I wanted to show you all what you get out of the camera pretty much.

Also.. I could have had any silly colour temperature set in these tests, tint could be anywhere.. which then was probably passed down into these shots during transcoding... remembering these images did not go through any hi end grading process to be balanced out. This is a basic as it gets.

I'm finding it very hard Rob to listen to your comments as you sound very intelligent and knowledgable, but your assessments so far are all based from non graded material and from a compressed quicktime.
And to make it even worse, there was know new colour science applied, this was still RG3.
And finally... this test was more a latitude, dynamic range test, not a "HOW GOOD CAN MARK GRADE" test... I wasn't out to hide a single thing.

Once again... Don't blame or judge the camera from my very basic graded shots. That's not a smart idea.

 

[Ted Parkes]

Mark . I for one was holding off on the upgrade until I seen something and what you posted had me sign up right away. I appreciate the time, work, effort and professional assessment you have put in to these test.

Thanks again
Ted

 

[Elsie N]

But you should...

Boys, boys, boys... Don't blame the camera for "my" very basic grading. Thats just silly.

Your comments shouldn't be founded entirely from a H264 quicktime... which personally looks a little flat compared to my original source files.
As we all know, when you compress something that is 36gig in size down to 250meg... you will loose information, shades, colors and tones. Thats a fact.

So adding more saturation to a face do you honestly think is a big issue... ? Nope.
Do you guys create content where you don't finial grade any of your work ? , is this why your asking for absolute perfection straight out of the box ? so you don't need to grade?
I usually put everything through a Hi end grading tool... but not this, I wanted to show you all what you get out of the camera pretty much.

Also.. I could have had any silly colour temperature set in these tests, tint could be anywhere.. which then was probably passed down into these shots during transcoding... remembering these images did not go through any hi end grading process to be balanced out. This is a basic as it gets.

I'm finding it very hard Rob to listen to your comments as you sound very intelligent and knowledgable, but your assessments so far are all based from non graded material and from a compressed quicktime.
And to make it even worse, there was know new colour science applied, this was still RG3.
And finally... this test was more a latitude, dynamic range test, not a "HOW GOOD CAN MARK GRADE" test... I wasn't out to hide a single thing.

Once again... Don't blame or judge the camera from my very basic graded shots. That's not a smart idea.

Seems you are saying this same thing over and over... maybe you should just quote the above post every few pages?

 

[Humberto Rivera]

Mark, Amen! Amen! Amen! Humberto Rivera

 

[Sergio Perez]

Mark, how are the encoding times for a 6K to 4K file compared to old 5K to 4K (prores 422 please!)

EDIT with an old Rocket, of course!

 

[Martin Stevens]

Mark, what is truly fantastic about your test is that the imagery DOES look fantastic even though
you did NOT put it through fancy grading software.

It amazes me that people cannot see the power of the Dragon in your tests, and also
see a big difference to MX in the DR and Noise.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Mark - I meant no offense to your daughter. I felt that both the man and your daughter looked a little flat and a little off - still what that slightly excessive yellow I always grade away with secondaries, but wish I didn't have to (although it's already better than uncorrected MX)- it has nothing to do with their actual skin tones, as they both looked off in the same way. To my credit, I have something a little fancier than a retina display here, and much more precise, calibrated every two weeks to within 0.3% of Red 709 perfection using a Hubble probe that is itself calibrated every 6 months, with perfect 5600K backlighting on a wall panel painted with special neutral grey paint. It's not my monitors/projectors leading me astray. The problem really is there, although it's subtle.

What problem?

PS: Straight out of the camera - no grading what so ever. And yeah - did I mention Scarlet...?

:sifone: Peter

 

[paul schefz]

6k playback via RCX at 1/4 res ... yes.... Via my MBP. no Rocket inline.
17:1 was clean... Seemed unbelievable to me too... but its fine.



I have no idea how they do it.



We were getting an extra 3 to 5mins out of them with the DRAGON.

thanks so much mark....that is so awesome....the extra battery life is more then a cherry on top as well....
and: i don't really care how they do it either, wasn't looking for a technical explanation....just your user/tester confirmation....

thanks agina for doing this test and thanks for putting up with all this and taking time to answer questions here....

as for the skin tone thing: not sure how many threads have to be closed because the answers are always the same.....this is not about being a blind red defender or fanboy...at all...this is about an infuriating refusal to listen/read....judging any kind of camera performance (color, tones, even DR) from compressed online stills or video just does not make any sense....you have to take in the information provided by the tester and look at the presented files with that info in mind and make an educated judgement for yourself...that is what an online test (especially of a beta product) is...or at best that is what can get out of one....what the final camera can/will do in your hands is something nobody knows until one can try it out....

i really hope this thread will survive so we can actually get some real and up to date information here....

 

[Michael Ou]

Thanks Mark for taking the time to put this most valuable video out there! Like Ted, I was on the fence with respect to upgrading immediately, but your shots in the partially shaded woods, the bright car, all the low light and iso 6400 footage knocked me over and I put myself on the list right after.

Don't listen to the small number of detractors, they have yet to put themselves or any of their work up here for all of us to evaluate. This is a simple test of yet unreleased tech, not an in-depth clinical analysis, you said that from the start, you're saying that now, and yet here we are, it's clear there are other factors driving those motivated few. I feel lucky that we can see this footage so that we get a taste of what's to come, and I'm excited! Thanks!

 

[Martin Stevens]

What problem?

PS: Straight out of the camera - no grading what so ever. And yeah - did I mention Scarlet...?

:sifone: Peter

Awesome. Great example.

I like what you're smoking.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

But you should...

Boys, boys, boys... Don't blame the camera for "my" very basic grading. Thats just silly.

Your comments shouldn't be founded entirely from a H264 quicktime... which personally looks a little flat compared to my original source files.
As we all know, when you compress something that is 36gig in size down to 250meg... you will loose information, shades, colors and tones. Thats a fact.

So adding more saturation to a face do you honestly think is a big issue... ? Nope.
Do you guys create content where you don't finial grade any of your work ? , is this why your asking for absolute perfection straight out of the box ? so you don't need to grade?
I usually put everything through a Hi end grading tool... but not this, I wanted to show you all what you get out of the camera pretty much.

Also.. I could have had any silly colour temperature set in these tests, tint could be anywhere.. which then was probably passed down into these shots during transcoding... remembering these images did not go through any hi end grading process to be balanced out. This is a basic as it gets.

I'm finding it very hard Rob to listen to your comments as you sound very intelligent and knowledgable, but your assessments so far are all based from non graded material and from a compressed quicktime.
And to make it even worse, there was know new colour science applied, this was still RG3.
And finally... this test was more a latitude, dynamic range test, not a "HOW GOOD CAN MARK GRADE" test... I wasn't out to hide a single thing.

Once again... Don't blame or judge the camera from my very basic graded shots. That's not a smart idea.

I wasn't blaming you, or the camera, and I'm not drawing any conclusions, only expressing concerns, with the real hope that these concerns are unfounded. Most likely they are.

H264 wouldn't affect colors much, especially in brighter areas, and anyway I downloaded the quicktime original from Vimeo..

Actually it's sometimes some work to pull a clean key off skintones and saturate and 'de-yellow' just those without adding secondaries-noise or affecting other things. Not impossible, by any means, but a pain. Freckles also look oddly more pronounced on MX - I think it's a spectral response thing on the sensor itself, not really completely the fault of the color science. Reducing freckles again, not impossible, but a huge pain requiring a script in Smoke tweaked per-shot. (I didn't see any freckle issues in your video, but it's definitely something to test for with a subject who has them.)

I'm hoping RedColor4 or "Dragon Color" will make all that tweaking unnecessary - i.e. if you nail white balance and exposure based on a grey card where the actor's face was, skin tones will look exactly and wonderfully as they should straight-off - and only look whatever funky way you want if you later choose that direction.

Maybe the very near future will prove these concerns groundless and that will make me very happy, but they are reasonable ones, I think. Again, these are just concerns, not conclusions or accusations in any way shape or form. I am, as you wisely suggest, waiting and seeing how things evolve and improve and I'm sure they will, maybe more than I could ever hope, let alone enough to not be concerned anymore.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Remember this Red color example.



PS

How do I post and make the image appear larger?

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

What problem?

PS: Straight out of the camera - no grading what so ever. And yeah - did I mention Scarlet...?

:sifone: Peter

Sorry but skin lacks saturation to my eye, and a bit too pink - should be a tad more toward orange. Again, subtle, but...

You can nail skin tones. The problem is nailing skin tones while keeping other colors as they should be without using a secondary qualifications and corrections. This frame is a bad example because there are no known colors in it other than skin - the lipstick's true color is unknown.

Just to be clear - the problem is very subtle, and occurs only under certain types of lighting, with certain types of complexion, but it's there. On an F65, no. On Dragon, I'm hoping, also no.

As to those who are calling me a detractor - as a thinking person I feel it is not my job to just say "Rah Rah Red!!!" no matter what, like a mindless sycophant. Thing is, clients, directors, studios etc., all have these concerns. If you just get angry at me, or them, instead of addressing these concerns they will simply request another camera, and that's no good for Red or for Red owners who promote their use.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Remember this Red color example.

View attachment 41481

PS

How do I post and make the image appear larger?

A) Tanned skin has never been a problem.

B) It's a still - you can anything with Photoshop very fast and easily - unlike motion-picture retouching.

 

[Michael Ou]

As to those who are calling me a detractor - as a thinking person I feel it is not my job to just say "Rah Rah Red!!!" no matter what, like a mindless sycophant. Thing is, clients, directors, studios etc., all have these concerns. If you just get angry at me, or them, instead of addressing these concerns they will simply request another camera, and that's no good for Red or for Red owners who promote their use.

"doth protest to much, methinks"
Not angry at all, and also will not take the bait. Red has only opened doors for me, not shut them as perhaps you are implying. The FUD regarding skin ended a LONG time ago!

 

[Elsie N]

Sorry but skin lacks saturation to my eye, and a bit too pink - should be a tad more toward orange. Again, subtle, but...

You can nail skin tones. The problem is nailing skin tones while keeping other colors as they should be without using a secondary qualifications and corrections. This frame is a bad example because there are no known colors in it other than skin - the lipstick's true color is unknown.

Just to be clear - the problem is very subtle, and occurs only under certain types of lighting, with certain types of complexion, but it's there. On an F65, no. On Dragon, I'm hoping, also no.

As to those who are calling me a detractor - as a thinking person I feel it is not my job to just say "Rah Rah Red!!!" no matter what, like a mindless sycophant. Thing is, clients, directors, studios etc., all have these concerns. If you just get angry at me, or them, instead of addressing these concerns they will simply request another camera, and that's no good for Red or for Red owners who promote their use.

I KNEW IT! Rob, you have that third eye the rest of us do not possess. I thought Peter's image, straight out of the camera, no less, was perfect. I may have to find something else to do. If that image doesn't work, how will I ever achieve a proper looking movie...

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Rob have u seen that recent test on CML with f65, Alexa, Epic, BMCC, c500 and F55? Worth looking at:
http://www.omegabroadcast.com/fmp/omega-detail.php?-manuRecID=630&-recid=2472&-tab=0

 

[Michael Jarvis]

Got an idea. Lets all go out an buy the same monitors and calibrate everything the exact same way...and look at those frames again. Something tells me if those skin tones look off to some, there may be other elements at work there. Skin tones look great from here.