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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon/Epic comparison

A last thing which is very visible in Les´s blowup, is how harmonized the skin nuances still are on the Dragon, while it gets the blue/yellow patches when pushed on the Epic.

The tint worry me = 0

I dunno with Dragon, but I have been working with enough Epics, to know that they can be pretty widely tinted. Some are green, some are magenta, and it is all easily tinted out....
And they vary to a lesser or larger degree, but that has never been a real matching issue.

Again... Risky to post stuff like this, because people can get confused at what they are looking at and for. That is also my reason to not post R3Ds and lower exposures.

I know many would find good info in those, though.
I just hate the noise on the boards that sometimes happen... :)

Night!

G
 
Gunleik Groven said:
A last thing which is very visible in Les´s blowup, is how harmonized the skin nuances still are on the Dragon, while it gets the blue/yellow patches when pushed on the Epic.

The tint worry me = 0

I dunno with Dragon, but I have been working with enough Epics, to know that they can be pretty widely tinted. Some are green, some are magenta, and it is all easily tinted out....
And they vary to a lesser or larger degree, but that has never been a real matching issue.

Again... Risky to post stuff like this, because people can get confused at what they are looking at and for. That is also my reason to not post R3Ds and lower exposures.

I know many would find good info in those, though.
I just hate the noise on the boards that sometimes happen... :)

Night!

G
Click to expand...

Yes the MX magenta blowouts is nothing new and not much to worry about on the MX those magenta patches has nothing to hide than white. Simple Colour correction and its out.
I think this post is great and it really shows the DR of the dragon and if people do not see the difference then so be it, Latitude looks amazing.
 
Thanks so much Gunleik! Really helpful stuff, but I got to say, I'm really bummed you didn't take it another 2 stops lower to show more about the DR. The DR difference is noticeable in the overexposed images, but not by a lot... and in the last images, the Dragon already seems a lot darker than the MX, which is confusing...
 
welcome boys, to the complexities of subtle cinematography. the mx sensor is awesome. the dragon sensor is appearing awesome-r as you might expect. most of the bashes you've heard about red (i.e. skintones, highlights) are subtle and easily corrected in post. looks like they're working on getting everything spot on straight off the sensor, just to shut everybody up, if not to provide superbly accurate color nuances and an extremely flexible image. and the dragon color science ain't even finished yet. oh, and you get 6k at highspeeds... oh, and the lightest camera of its kind... (actually, the only camera of its kind) oh, and modularity/upgradability... oh, and and and... it's a better camera every day. do you have to get an upgrade? certainly not. but it is better. upgrade, plain and simple and awesome. as you might expect from the red team (:

personally, my next $10k has to go towards the red projector, assuming it's on the way... not to derail, just sayin'... i need that light
 
All these images look almost identical at a quick glance.

Mike
 
Nice Gunleik!!!

As I can see Dragon is a couple of steps forward in a comparison with MX.

Of course it still works with the "old" firmware.

It is expected to get much better with the new firmware and colour science that is coming soon...!!!

It takes a bit longer time to tweak everything between the new sensor, motherboard, OLPF and REDCODE.

But it will come for sure.
 
Daniel Soderberg said:
Thanks so much Gunleik! Really helpful stuff, but I got to say, I'm really bummed you didn't take it another 2 stops lower to show more about the DR. The DR difference is noticeable in the overexposed images, but not by a lot... and in the last images, the Dragon already seems a lot darker than the MX, which is confusing...
Click to expand...

OK.
This is an interesting statement, and makes me once again think I should just take it all offline.
Problem with posting stuff like this, is that people often do not really know what they see...

If you cannot se the HUGE difference in highlight handling, color treatment, saturation of colors and latitude in the overexposed image, I dunno what I could post.
And when the talk goes into the noise and again not colors and fidelity on the lowlight images...

I start thinking... well there is no point anyway.
Stupid.

You can take my word from me or not.

I shot a 16 stop test, and had Image from the Dragon all the way from top to bottom.

And Of cource it is not scientiffical, but it has enough precission to suggest that the 16+ stops RED has claimed, that I so far have refrained from quoting, is more than plausible and within the realms of what I see...
NOW, how is that NOT "enough"?

THen I guess there is something to the unison reaction to how flexible the camera is to use by all those who have tested it...
Either we are all silly, or we kinda got a wake up call through getting to Use it.

Let us check...
Tom Lowe 3x Dragon.
Mark Toia - at least one now
Peter Lyons Collister - kinda decided to shoot his next feature on it
The Brothers of NY - got one
And I changed my plans 180 after trying it.
Phil is on his way from happy Scarletteer to Dragon insanery
Probst.

that is not to mention all the big-names guys who did the same.
And I have had some rather test-savvy guys on my private mailbox expressing the same sentiments as I see.

Either we are all, silly incompetent fools.
Or there is some really groundbreaking new stuff happening here....

Phil and John has broken down a lot of the tech stuff earlier.

I think still a lot of the breakdowns I did here;
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?105573-Sweet&p=1259888&viewfull=1#post1259888

Are both valid and relevant, even though I am very impressed on how much further RED has managed to push the camera, after I got to test the prototype.

I would have to push it a bit further to break it in both ends.

and the camera joins you "all the way" with color an nuances in both those ends of the spectrum...

If that does not impress the shit out of you...

Please tell me what would.

OTOH... Happiness is sometimes a lonely thing, and should probably remain that way... :)
But I guess I made up my mind on the R3Ds... :)

Thanks for clearing that up! ;)

G
 
Great.

This is useful and reveals a lot.

Everything looks smoother. The noise profile might be quite similar, but things just looks smoother from a color and tonality perspective and that is perhaps where people have said it "looks" less noisy.

The he only numbers not included which would have an effect on noise is the relative compression ratio of dragon vs. epic MX.

are these both shot at at the lowest compression ratio on each camera?

David

i thin jarred mentioned that there is no restriction on releasing r3ds in the dragon NYC thread.
Jarred Land said:
No restrictions... These Dragons are all owned by their adoptive parents can do with them whatever they may well please :)
Click to expand...
 
My decission not to release R3Ds is mine. Neither that, nor the publishing of these images are in any way encouraged or supported or blessed or in any way directly influenced by RED.

THAT said.

As to noise, many things come into play. "the future of dragongamma/dragon color" being the one we do not know. And many other developments, too.

What we DO know, is that supersampling is still the name of the game, so I think even the 2k jpgs posted here is of some relevance...

Even IF noise has similarities at 1:1 resolution

1. the images do not "look" the same when pushed.
2. when you downsample for a deliveryformat, the oversampling of the Dragon makes the resulting image a lot less noisier (even today)
3. The added DR and colorfidelity, opens up a whole new world of possibilities.

Remember what Jim wrote in one of his last posts here, before he decided to just keep quiet:

(me parafrazing here, but along the line of)
ALL sensor have limits. They will overexpose at one value and go black/noisy at another.

we have longed for more
latitude
color
DR

and RED has so far delivered, and improved on that delivery.
It is a bit of an incredible tech advancement we get to see here...

For practical analysis of what the Dragon can handle, there are a lot of good examples by now.
If you want to check what it performance when doimng "silly exposure choices"

I still think "Sweet" and the analysis of the different images is quite informative.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?105573-Sweet&p=1259888&viewfull=1#post1259888

Anyhow.
I will just take a little break

hahaha

Gunleik
 
Gunleik, thanks for this quick test!

This ist the first Dragon footage which is meaningful for me. Why?

1. I see the pictures in Log. Anything else is pretty much useless because one loses too much information in the Rec709 LUT/Gamma.

2. The test it well deigned. We see clearly that the Dragon sensor has approx. 1-2 stops more latitude in the hights compared to an equal mid-grey.

3. Dragon exhibit less noise. The noise is more homogenous and less colourful.

----

The obvious colour differences mean not much to me. Skintones with the MX have never been an issue for me, looks like Dragon will be a tad closer to reality - but what is reality in film?

So what will I expect when I get my Epic upgraded:

1. More resolution.

2. Less noise

3. Approx 1 to 1.5 stops more sensitivity. With Epic I shoot most stuff with 400 ASA, I expect Dragon to work best at 800 ASA.

4. About 2 Stops more dynamic range.

5. Probably better colour science (can't say much to this topic from this test).

Conclusion: Dragon seems to push Epic in the Alexa realm but with double the resolution. Pretty neat!

Thanks again!


Hans
 
I was just responding to this.

Gunleik Groven said:
If someone from RED steps in and either takes this thread down (because the colorscience is not done) OR gives the "go" for posting these R3Ds, I will gladly comply to both.
Click to expand...

But thanks for clarifying. I get it, the color science is not done.

Battistella
 
I let Philip Orlandic have a go on the lowest of the exposures I did.

He is a knowledgeable guy who had a filmlab and posthouse as his kindergarten...

That is 16 stops under the 1st exposure, and he developed them at RELOGFILM/ISO 2000.

what he just sent me blew my mind away...

But I will let him comment, if he wants to
 
Just finished up being somewhat absent for the last 4 days and I have a lot to catch up on here!


Hans von Sonntag said:
5. Probably better colour science (can't say much to this topic from this test).

Conclusion: Dragon seems to push Epic in the Alexa realm but with double the resolution. Pretty neat!
Click to expand...


It should be noted that in it's current iteration with REDcolor3/REDgamma3 applied to Dragon the overall color is different and "better" than where it was with Mysterium-X. It will be fun to see where Red takes it from here too.

Dynamic Range with Dragon is significantly more than anything currently on the market. Also, it should be mentioned depending on the exposure method and ISO rating you can retain a great deal more in one direction or the other if you want to. Or you can shoot more "balanced". Up to you.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Either we are all, silly incompetent fools.
Or there is some really groundbreaking new stuff happening here....
G
Click to expand...

Ground-breaking new stuff like better dynamic range, better color, a "smoother" image, higher resolution, etc, etc...BUT.....virtually the same noise as MX, pixel for pixel, true? And let's not argue that sub-sampling and color science fixes that, because pixel for pixel, it's very, very similar. That's not so bad. I think it's fine! So, you guys are certainly not silly incompetent fools, but maybe aren't bold enough to agree on something like this here on Reduser? For the sake of what? RED's image? The hype? That's what frustrates me. The upgrade to Dragon is clearly well worth the money. No Doubt. The images you get from the new sensor are superior to MX, no doubt. So what harm is there in talking about the strengths AND weaknesses, rather than cleverly typing around the weaknesses. When Les posted his noise example, it shed light and revealed the true characteristics of the sensor in regards to noise, at a 1:1 viewing. This is what what I'm interested in, along side your test which was has revealed a lot...although, what are you worried about with posting your .R3D's? People asking you stupid questions? Or creating forum "noise"? (pun intended). That noise is precisely what pushes this industry into new places...to keep a lid on it, restrict it, or shun it elsewhere doesn't help anyone...other than the top dogs who seem to have authority around these parts.
 
Matthew.

I am not denying anything.

Just pointing out (after seeing Dragon images displayed in 4k from files I recorded) that

For a delivered image, the noise is in all practical ways, allready with current colorscience significantly lower when delivered in 4k and even more so in 2k.

And to me that is what counts. Practical result on a deliverable of any kind.

That is also why I see no point in doing a 2k comparison as the other guy suggested.
Because that is not the way anyone will actually use the images (that I know of)

Of course there will be noise when underexposed.
But in practical use, it is a lot cleaner.

How do I know?

I tried...

And I have no need to put my name behind stuff I do not believe in after testing...

Sometimes I (like Probst) have pissed off RED for that...
Seriously.

I just get a bit frustrated with people who are not looking into what THE SUM of the improvements do to the resulting image, already at its current state of things.
 
Noise does seem very similar…I came across this image shot on Dragon. Detail looks amazing but when you enlarge the image, there is noise.
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18xwoqrcstt0rjpg/original.jpg

Despite that Im sure were in for amazing things from the Dragon…hell even the MX sensor/range still amazes me

Messed with a shot on my Scarlet the other day. Shot over exposed to see what I can bring back and this was only in 3K 48FPS

Overexposed:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/86483134@N03/11271461366/lightbox/

Brought back:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/86483134@N03/11271420645/lightbox/
 
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