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Dragon and IR ND's and Hot mirrors

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Adam Eden

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I thought i would start this thread as i started one about the epic that went very quiet.

Since i am waiting for my Epic M to be upgraded to Dragon i was wondering does the dragon require the use of IR nd's with a hot mirror in front like the Epic.

I have been on a shoot for the last week where i was still getting IR pollution on my Epic M with 1.5 + .9IRND with a hot mirror in front so i could sit at T1.3 on my super speeds.

Has anyone tried this on the dragon as i am in the market for a new set or IRND's since i have 2 sets of normal ND's and a hot mirror and i don't want to waste my money if the dragon doesn't need them.
 
Adam,

Check out posts from Phill Holland who has done iR testing on the Dragon chip and it looks like IR pollution is a thing of the past with the new chip even usng heavy standard ND filters
 
Does anyone know if there is a penalty shooting with Tiffen hot mirrors on a dragon ( new OLPF), Since we own them already. (Aside from being fragile and stacking issues). Do they cause a color shift?
 
Here's an example of with ND 2.7:
phfx_redDragon_NewOLPF_ChartDaylight.jpg


I've tested 0.3-3.0 (1-9 stops) and I can confidently say with Dragon you don't need any IR protection. Regular NDs are the way to go. Now finding a neutral set of of those is a real trick though :)

For comparison, here's the old Mysterium-X Graphic:

phfx_redNDIRProtectionExample.jpg




Frank Martin said:
Does anyone know if there is a penalty shooting with Tiffen hot mirrors on a dragon ( new OLPF), Since we own them already. (Aside from being fragile and stacking issues). Do they cause a color shift?
Click to expand...

Yes. They will cause a color shift.
 
Daniel Stilling said:
Man... Sitting on a 1.3? give your focus puller a fighting chance! :)
Click to expand...

True story :) At ND 3.0, 9 stops of correction you would essentially be shooting in broad daylight at T1.3.
 
Ivan McCullough said:
Do it all the time although here I only need ND 2.1 or 2.4 .

Sometimes I am as popular with AC's as RED cameras.
Click to expand...

It's going to vary depending on a lot of things.

When doing "white shirt" tests here in LA in noon-3pm sun ND 3.0 handles it.

When doing that same test in Wellington New Zealand. ND 3.0 is not enough at T1.3.

Earth. You so crazy.
 
Phil Holland said:
Here's an example of with ND 2.7:
phfx_redDragon_NewOLPF_ChartDaylight.jpg


I've tested 0.3-3.0 (1-9 stops) and I can confidently say with Dragon you don't need any IR protection. Regular NDs are the way to go. Now finding a neutral set of of those is a real trick though :)

For comparison, here's the old Mysterium-X Graphic:

phfx_redNDIRProtectionExample.jpg






Yes. They will cause a color shift.
Click to expand...

very useful. In the Dragon example you have set the white balance to a card as seen through the filters, correct? What does it look like at 5000K?
 
Eric Haase said:
very useful. In the Dragon example you have set the white balance to a card as seen through the filters, correct? What does it look like at 5000K?
Click to expand...

Correct, it's white balanced to the middle gray patch.

I think they were both in the nominal range of 5200-5400K. Both the Old and New OLPF are in the example.

Don't know why a specific Kelvin value would be of any use. There's insane color cast variations across Neutral Density filters from different and even the same filter manufacturers. This is due to batch variation. I have 5x ND .9 filters in front of me that when put in front of the camera are all slightly different.

This is the same reason I color match my filters and compare them to each other. It's the same reason why some of the top DPs have their own sets of NDs that nobody else ever gets to touch.

I send back anything that's outside of a couple hundred Kelvin in relationship to itself.


Something to note, if you you look at the shadow color on the shirt of the New OLPF image you can see some of the further IR improvements even.
 
Phil Holland said:
Correct, it's white balanced to the middle gray patch.

I think they were both in the nominal range of 5200-5400K. Both the Old and New OLPF are in the example.

Don't know why a specific Kelvin value would be of any use. There's insane color cast variations across Neutral Density filters from different and even the same filter manufacturers. This is due to batch variation. I have 5x ND .9 filters in front of me that when put in front of the camera are all slightly different.

This is the same reason I color match my filters and compare them to each other. It's the same reason why some of the top DPs have their own sets of NDs that nobody else ever gets to touch.

I send back anything that's outside of a couple hundred Kelvin in relationship to itself.


Something to note, if you you look at the shadow color on the shirt of the New OLPF image you can see some of the further IR improvements even.
Click to expand...
Phil, do you recommend shooting Dragon with auto white balance on?
 
Elsie N said:
Phil, do you recommend shooting Dragon with auto white balance on?
Click to expand...

Yes and no.

Two ways to look at it really since you are just manipulating metadata.


If you "know" that you are shooting under daylight or tungsten there's nothing stopping you from setting your kelvin in camera and shooting away. On most features I've worked with artificial lighting that's the way we role. Though, because I'm working mostly in VFX related things I shoot color charts and material always is going to a colorist, and I'm mostly trying to get the best in camera image possible. If you aren't sure on the lighting though it might be good to utilize AWB on a WB target.

Sometimes it's better to get things right in camera, especially if you are looking to push out quick and decent color. Also, sometimes lighting is mixed and complicated. The Auto White Balance in camera works really nicely for all of that.


So in my particular workflow it's a bit of both. Just depends on what I'm doing.


One other thing to consider. I often am working with mixed temperature or gelled lights. Also, I sometimes am the colorist as well. So if I have that knowledge from the get go that can influence my decisions when shooting a lot. If my key light one temperature in say a low key scene and I want it "white" I'll WB to that source and filter around that base. Also, if I know I'm going to go "nuts" with some sort of insane color after the fact I may use some sort of logic on set to maybe have the image go warm or cool or whatever. Again, just depends.


The good news is your White Balance info is metadata. So if you are off a smidge it's not the end of the world and colorists can help make everything look even better. If you are way off and say don't want to use Daylight lighting as "white" and you sat in Tungsten WB you might have made some questionable exposure decisions. It's nice to get things close to where you want them on screen. Helps with the exposure tools. Helps with just everything.
 
Very helpful... thanks Phil.
 
dewaldaukema said:
Hi Phil
Any experience/thoughts on the Mitomo True ND's with Dragon (new OLPF)?
Also, choice of either Tiffen or Schneider ND's on Dragon (new OLPF)?
Thx
Click to expand...


I don't have a set of Mitomos here unfortunately. They are the "newest" to the street and I'd love to test them out.

Any IRND that has a visible tint to it will essentially cause that tint to show up in the footage. For example, the green tinted IRNDs from various manufacturers.

Regular NDs are truly the best way to go for "as close to neutral" as possible. But there are always variations in the batches. I have to check those Mitomos though. Who knows. They could be gems.

As for brand. Tiffen or Schneider will do. My "workhorse" set are Panavision sized 4x5.65" ND 0.3-1.8 Schneiders. I have literally about a dozen other types and brands here though.
 
Formatt release a new ND next week.
 
Danai Chutinaton said:
Phill,

From what you're saying I should expect to see a red tint from my Formatt IRND filters on Dragon right?
Click to expand...

Nope. That's not what I'm saying, it shouldn't cancel the effect out. I'm saying if there's a visible tint to your IRND you will see it on your footage. If it's optically neutral you will not.

If it's an IRND/Hot Mirror combo you may see weird color that's fixed via a white balance as well.

Dragon = Just need regular NDs.
 
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