Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

[Emanuel A.]

I am so glad I didn't buy a bunch of 16mm glass. That stuff is almost worthless now.

LMAO Word.

OK, you're forgetting you can always crop the sensor as same as 2/3" route would happen to be. The difference now is you who decides to crop or not.

Despite the fact there's no more 3K 120fps but you can always buy or rent one After all, there are other people also buying the EPIC, for some reason it should be, isn't it?

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

I'm not sure, but I also believe your math is wrong. With a 2/3" sensor, the processing power would have been sufficient for 120 fps at 3k. With the bigger sensor it is not.

Does it really matter how big the sensor is? If the resolution (number of pixels) is the same, the processing power they require should be the same -- 3K on Scarlet-X should require no more processing power than 3K on the old 2/3-inch Scarlet. So, while the last maximum data rate of the Scarlet 3K (100 MBps) isn't 2.5x that of the Scarlet-X (55 MBps), it is nearly 2x.

 

[Brian Iannone]

This is why Apple and Canon don't pre-announce internal development plans. Some people latch on to them. RED's openness and sense of community is very different than most companies I've ever encountered. Clearly some people can't handle it. The majority appreciates it.

Agreed.

 

[Cedric Akins]

How many of you remember the NUCLEAR disaser that happened over seas a while back? The thing was, at the time, that many of the parts came from there. Scarlet was going to be held back due to distribution and manufacturing issues caused by the earthequake in Japan. Japan's nuclear disaster, Fukushima Dai-ichi, is still on-going as of November, 2011, and will be for decades to come. Although the original Scarlet is not the one Red pushed to the market, the Scarlet-X is no joke.

If you still want to complain please go overseas to Japan and tell the earthquake that caused the nuclear plant disaster that caused the deaths of so many people that you are upset that it resulted in the delay in the final developement of the 3K for 3K camera we all wanted.

Red saw the interest in the camera and pushed to get the camera to market as best they could. Rather than tell all of us on Reduser and Scarlet user the camera will be put on hold indefinately to find parts distributors to build the Scarlet, Red took what was available to make the camera a reality now. Thank you Red Team.

Now I have to come up with an additional 10 grand plus the money for some good glass to get the PRO CAMERA I will use for years to come.

 

[John Byrne]

It's all good, Andrew ;-)

Copy that John... And NO I do not take myself so seriously, but please understand that is the same verbiage that I deal with daily from people who try to discredit me for working with RED cameras. Been doing this a while now just getting tired of people putting down other people. No harm, no foul.

And yes, I am a creative as well... Will be happy to post my latest works soon. Cheers!

 

[andrewhake]

I don't think RED gave you anything different than what you wanted, they just let it do more and made it a bit more expensive. Actually, they never really provided a set price.

RED didn't put out a camera I can afford either. So what? Take it to one of the many other threads already discussing this.

 

[Michael Dalton]

I have way more respect for red then I ever did after the release of Scarlet X. I know I have a company I'm investing in that believes in the industry, and making it better. There not in it for the bottom line. The fact that are willing to change last minute is incredible, they are always thinking of us, and pushing stuff forward. This has been an amazing example to seeing how a product gets developed and pushes the boundary of technology. Just because scarlet is using some technology that did not make it into Epic, does not me that it is anything less then cutting edge. EPIC is an amazing camera, it's like ending up with a Porsche made from technology left over from a ferrari. (Sorry to an Porsche owners) Anything that comes from Epic development is a privilege to have in a scarlet.

Anyone who can afford a scarlet should not pissed. Because of Jim and red, camera technology has been advanced greatly over the past couple of year, and you can always buy one of those camera's that offer you amazing quality. Canon and Sony have gotten better because of red. It may not be a Red, and if it does not work, then save a little longer.

 

[John Byrne]

The fact that we are even having this discussion is a testament to RED and our collective passion.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I get your frustration over the price difference (less framerate and more $$) but you have to remember that you do get a 4x bigger chip which can shoot 5k (if only in stills).

Remember how much the MX upgrade cost? $5750.

$4k interchangeable + $5750 MX sensor = $9750. Coincidence?

I am a little disappointed that the new camera doesn't shoot 5k @ 24p or HDRx @ 4k. I would have paid an extra $1k for that. I'm hoping when the Dragon upgrade comes around we'll be able to get a Scarlet-X+ as far as framerates are concerned. And I'm disappointed that the old 120fps 3k isn't available anymore even at higher compression rates.

But I also had 0 plans to buy a Scarlet until 6:45pm on Thursday. The Scarlet-X is worse than the Epic-S and costs about the same *BUT* it's upgrade-able to Dragon and that's a HUGE feature which makes the the price difference worth it. I suspect in some respects Scarlet-X is eating up some of the lost revenue from bad chip yields so we're kind of getting used. But we're getting used with a great camera, that admittedly could be a little better.

24 fps 5k @ 7:1 compression, 48fps 4k w/ HDRx and 120fps 3k + Dragon upgrade path would have made it damn near perfect, but of the options available I don't want to spend $30k on an epic brain and I didn't want a $12k s35 camera that doesn't have a dragon upgrade path... so I'm happy--happy enough to plop down $15k and use it until they release a FF35 Scarlet.

 

[Kyle Presley]

$4k interchangeable + $5750 MX sensor = $9750. Coincidence?

Yes, I understand this. However, the Scarlet hardware is not the same as Scarlet-X. It uses boards that did not pass QC that were made for Epic. Theses ASICS are actually lot slower than the original Scarlet's. If they stuck with the original Scarlet hardware, you would be able to shoot full 5K at 24+ fps. If this is what RED would do in regards to Scarlet X, it would be much more understandable.

 

[Häakon]

I personally believe that Red missed a huge opportunity killing off the fixed & 2/3" lines, but frankly so has every other camera manufacturer. There's an enormous market for it and no one is really doing it well.

They missed a lot of demand, sure. There will always be more demand for a cheap product than a more expensive one. But would it be good for RED or any of the rest of us?

RED is a small company. Jim's said that even with this final version of Scarlet, they're likely to "never be out of backorder." Obviously it was a little tongue-in-cheek, but there was some truth there. Could they even realistically handle the demand of a $3,000 camera at this point in time? I have serious doubts.

There's really nothing to be confused about here. RED has decided to only make professional level products and not prosumer level ones. This wasn't a secret; Jim publicly stated their renewed vision regarding this months ago. I think most knew that Scarlet was going to be 4K by the day of the announcement. We just didn't know they'd be able to do it for under $10K.

Lastly, don't ever take RED's development plans as "promises." They have ideas, and they openly muse about them, but nothing is ever "owed" to anyone. They make the best cameras they can at very aggressive prices that benefit all of us. But they are a business. Unifying the Scarlet and Epic lines by essentially making them the same camera (one just gets the lower yield, higher performing chips) makes more sense to me from a business perspective than anything else they've done to this point. My guess is that the only people who are bummed about the announcement are not bummed because it's now 4K, but bummed because they were hoping for something in an even lower price bracket and that doesn't exist right now at RED. So the choice is to go save your pennies or get one of those plastic cameras that dozens of other manufacturers make. But I for one am glad that they are continuing to push things forward and refusing to settle for "good enough." A 2/3" camera would only slow that progress down.

 

[Häakon]

Yes, I understand this. However, the Scarlet hardware is not the same as Scarlet-X.

Kyle, what if RED had never mentioned anything about Scarlet in the last three years and only unveiled it to the public (in it's current, final form) with the announcement they made on Thursday. Would you be upset then? If not, you need to adjust the way you process the information that RED communicates during the development cycle (or just stick to buying products made by Canon and Panasonic).

 

[John Byrne]

You're doing a good job of moderating, Häakon.

 

[Kyle Presley]

Kyle, what if RED had never mentioned anything about Scarlet in the last three years and only unveiled it to the public (in it's current, final form) with the announcement they made on Thursday. Would you be upset then? If not, you need to adjust the way you process the information that RED communicates during the development cycle (or just stick to buying products made by Canon and Panasonic).

You are absolutely right on all counts. All adjustments have been made. My assumptions about RED were wrong. However, I will say that there is more going on behind the scenes that I can't comment on publicly.

 

[Petr Dvorak]

To much speculations spins here.
Just dont wait for next big thing, take what you have and make some great footage.
You can do it almost every day no matter if with iPhone, Epic or Lomokino.

 

[Djordje Stajic]

I would buy a Fixed Scarlet even with a flaw on the lens...I cant afford Scarlet X, I wish I could, but I cant..not all have wages like in US..in my country we earn 250 euro (everage wage)

I Love Red though...

 

[Christian Edwards]

The fact that we are even having this discussion is a testament to RED and our collective passion.

True! I love the irony of arguments, frustrations, expectations and complaints here on Reduser

 

[Ryan Chapman]

I was angry at RED for the 2/3 120 fps being scrapped, too, and think that the Scarlet-X is inferior in some ways to the 3k 120 fps that they were originally planning. But how else should RED have handled the situation? The 3k 120 fps, for whatever reasons (technological or economical) suddenly isn't viable. Was Jim wrong to hype the Scarlet-X? Should he have said, off the bat, "Sorry, the camera you wanted is gone. We came up with this at the last second. It's expensive, it's bound to disappoint many of you, but here it is." What kind of product launch would that be? You take the product you have, and you make it look as good as you can. Once some time passes and they don't worry about hype to sell their products, you might start hearing some more honest testimony from Jim on the subject.

Personally, even though I was upset at first, and am not 100% happy with the Scarlet, I swallowed my pride and ordered one yesterday anyway, even though I had to take out a massive loan to do so, because it's still the best camera out there for the price.

 

[Adam Howden]

Kyle, I kinda with you dude and I think it's totally fair that you express your point of view here.

Red have spoken loudly about what they intend to offer in the past and I think it's wise that they start to reign that in, they are certainly skilled in winding everyone up into and excited frenzy.

Personally for me shooting 4K mostly unnecessary, when most projects are finished in 1080 at the most. Whilst the RAW functionality is great, it's not absolutely necessary. When you look at cameras like the 7D/5D those camera shoot heavily compressed full frame images and people rave about them. But if your shooting something close to what you want to get in the final grade (which you should be) then you don't necessarily need all the band width to push and pull and image around when it should be kinda close to the mark anyway.

I personally would prefer a much more heavily compressed image in exchange for being able to work in at least a Super 35mm frame size without windowing/cropping the sensor.

For me trying to upgrade from a 7D kit, that has well and truly paid itself off to a Scarlett will be tough, I'm personally thinking a recorder something like the Atomos Samurai and a very reduced Scarlett might be affordable..... maybe.

 

[CJ Roy]

There's really nothing to be confused about here. RED has decided to only make professional level products and not prosumer level ones. This wasn't a secret; Jim publicly stated their renewed vision regarding this months ago.

There's plenty of "professional" 2/3" applications. Aerials, sports, crashcams, underwater, etc. I may have missed it, but if saying 2/3" applications isn't professional is rather insulting to a large part of the industry. Maybe it's just not in Red's best interest? Sure, they don't have to cater to it, but there is a fairly healthy industry there. Being dismissive of it head-in-the-sand kind of look at it.

Lastly, don't ever take RED's development plans as "promises." They have ideas, and they openly muse about them, but nothing is ever "owed" to anyone. They make the best cameras they can at very aggressive prices that benefit all of us. But they are a business.

In fairness, the several years in advance announcements are what's causing this disappointment. It's just why most businesses don't do it. I don't think we can fault anyone for being disappointed after the expectations were raised over the course of years. If Tesla announced a purely electric SUV that cost 6k, and never produced, there would be some disappointment. It's just the natural reaction, if you had plans for it.

In short, Red's free to do as they wish. Their fans are free to be excited or disappointed with the products. There's no doubt Scarlet-X isn't a great camera, it's just one of the many people were hoping for.