Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

[Paul Ellington]

I amazes me how when people don't pay attention other stuff happens and then they look foolish...

 

[John Byrne]

Andrew: I counted myself among the flock. If you don't think we're all birds of a feather you're really taking yourself too seriously. Where's your sense of humor? You are a creative, yes?

Felix, I like you... I always thought you were a great guy. I wanted the interchangeable Scarlet as much or MORE than anyone else. I even purchased this S16 Zoom in GREAT anticipation of the interchangeable Scarlet.

But PLEASE do not drag my good friend Joseph into some kind of conspiracy... That IS NOT FAIR to him and ALL the hard work he has done to save up and purchase his own Epic M. Please think about that... He has been surrounded by Epic M's ALL year, OF COURSE he is going to bust ass to buy one. And NO DISCOUNTS TOO!

But other than that I understand your frustration, I SPENT $10K to have this lens and AKS already in anticipation for a camera that never made it light. I just don't think we should put RED down and other users as well, it's not fair.


And for John to call other users "loyal sheep".... Shame on you and all the others that denigrate the very hard working professionals that come here and share their hard fought knowledge.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

I'm supporting Kyle's opinion.

It seems people are to afraid to post over here due to the blind "RED can do nothing wrong" attitude by a lot of users. RED's actions with regards to the Scarlet are not ethically correct. I do agree that it's a great camera, but it's not a Scarlet. It's the Scarlet S35 or Epic-S.

They have in fact dangled the carrot and hyped something for 3 years, that they have now u-turned on and stated is not professional.

I see many of the same people are agreeing with RED's decision, were not voicing their opinions about the lack of professionalism in the 2/3" 3k Scarlet before 2 days ago. I also don't see anyone asking, "but why is it now called a Scarlet?" Do you remember your support for when this camera was moved into the Epic line? You couldn't wait to tell RED how much of great decision it was, and that the price increase was totally justified.

And please don't forget people, this camera will only shoot 12fps at a professional resolution. All the other resolutions are not man enough... according to RED

Oh, and this is coming from someone who DOES have the money, but doesn't want to invest in this system. It's not the camera that I have been waiting for.

I wouldn't say that is the case at all Richard. I just think people are taking to heart Jim's word's. He's expressed his grief at not having it work. He wanted it to. But the Scarlet aged itself out over a 3 year period. And I'm one who has been skeptical at times. RED put time and money into this and tried to make it work. They can only do so much. If the camera is not working. They're not going to release it. Either way I see it. It turns into....They don't release the camera for longer. Or they don't release it at all. They did what they thought was best.

 

[John Byrne]

Don't make this personal George.

++1

 

[Felix K.]

I don't get that "aged" thing. If they brought out Scarlet-F now, let's say for 7500 ready to shoot, it would still take the other companies years to get out a product to compete.

 

[Brad Webb]

I am so glad I didn't buy a bunch of 16mm glass. That stuff is almost worthless now.

 

[Zeb B]

Yeah . . . . in business "fraud" is kinda like one of those words:

"I'm not accusing Kyle of raping me, I just didn't enjoy the date"

 

[Zeb B]

I say we vote Kyle, "Off the Island!"

Never, REDUser needs Men With Balls to keep it relevant

 

[Philipp Straehl]

Kyle, I'm in a similar situation like you, as you might know already. But you must see that it is not Red's fault that your dream is not fulfilled. I told you that I find it very courageous to buy accessories before knowing for sure how the camera system will look like. You have bet on the wrong horse, that was your risk. Now you have lost the bet, and you can't blame anyone for this.

I would be more supportive towards you if you had voiced your frustration in a more gentleman-like manner. Sorry about that, but I really dislike this whining. Even we who have no or only limited access to professional gear belong to the 5% of privileged people in the world that have enough food, shelter, some level of security and stability, computers and permanent internet access. We should be glad everyday that we have this freedom and even some money left for expensive hobbies. We should be very happy just for that.

It looks like you have difficulties to deal with setbacks and disappointments. It is difficult, but obviously I'm much more hardboiled. I'm not going to list all my setbacks and disappointments, that would be a very long list. I just pick one of them: in the late 90's I followed the 'free-energy'-scene. Every month there was an announcement for a new 'energy-device'. I went to every congress and meeting in my area, read books and magazines, invested considerable time and energy into the subject. Looking at nature, how it works, it is clear that we are surrounded by 'free energy'. But, on a technical level, it was never really possible to collect or store that energy. Dozens of promises from developers and inventors, but they all were just pipe dreams that never worked. So it is with the 2/3" Scarlet. Red couldn't make it work, and that's it. We just have to move on.

I'm not sure, but I also believe your math is wrong. With a 2/3" sensor, the processing power would have been sufficient for 120 fps at 3k. With the bigger sensor it is not.

We really should have shut down the forums for a couple of days so that every hobbyist could have had the time to contemplate the situation, and deal with it in a mature fashion. Then such awful threads could have been avoided.

Another note: I'm not a professional, but I do know that filmmaking is a tough business. You need nerves of steel. And you need to communicate in a proper fashion, you must be the one that remains calm when everybody is flipping out.

 

[Kyle Presley]

Kyle.... I understand you are angry man. I really get it but I also agree with Ketch... Fraud? No... They are JUST as upset as we are over this but I respect you and your ability to voice your being upset. But can you imagine how upset Jarred is... And Jim... And Brent... And Ted.... Well, get my point.

And Again:

Thanks for your support, but please read that OP carefully. I AM NOT accusing RED of fraud. I used that as a disclaimer because a true bait and switch routine is a form of fraud. I do not believe it was fraud or bait and switch, only that the effect is the same and/or feels the same. "Carrot on a stick" is a better analogy.

 

[Andrew Benz]

Andrew: I counted myself among the flock. If you don't think we're all birds of a feather you're really taking yourself too seriously. Where's your sense of humor? You are a creative, yes?

Copy that John... And NO I do not take myself so seriously, but please understand that is the same verbiage that I deal with daily from people who try to discredit me for working with RED cameras. Been doing this a while now just getting tired of people putting down other people. No harm, no foul.

And yes, I am a creative as well... Will be happy to post my latest works soon. Cheers!

 

[Richard_JP]

I wouldn't say that is the case at all Richard. I just think people are taking to heart Jim's word's. He's expressed his grief at not having it work. He wanted it to. But the Scarlet aged itself out over a 3 year period. And I'm one who has been skeptical at times. RED put time and money into this and tried to make it work. They can only do so much. If the camera is not working. They're not going to release it. Either way I see it. It turns into....They don't release the camera for longer. Or they don't release it at all. They did what they thought was best.

But by Jim's own words. This camera has already aged. Professional is a finish in 4k (according to RED). This camera only shoots 12fps at a finish of 4k. So I don't see the value of investing in the first generation Scarlet.

As I said, this is not anything close to the camera that I was expecting. I agree, it is better for some, that being the Epic-S crowd. As for me, I really wanted the Scarlet interchangeable, but would have settled for the Scarlet fixed for this season. Now that the usable frame rates have gone, the Scarlet-X is not appealing to me.

Also, I'm intrigued as to why everyone is so sure that this is such a good camera. We haven't seen any footage from it right?

 

[Andrew Benz]

And Again:

Thanks for your support, but please read that OP carefully. I AM NOT accusing RED of fraud. I used that as a disclaimer because a true bait and switch routine is a form of fraud. I do not believe it was fraud or bait and switch, only that the effect is the same and/or feels the same. "Carrot on a stick" is a better analogy.

I did read it carefully, not really cool to throw that in my face... And the title of this thread does NOT do you favors as well. You could have handled this better...

 

[Kyle Presley]

Kyle, I'm in a similar situation like you, as you might know already. But you must see that it is not Red's fault that your dream is not fulfilled. I told you that I find it very courageous to buy accessories before knowing for sure how the camera system will look like. You have bet on the wrong horse, that was your risk. Now you have lost the bet, and you can't blame anyone for this.

I would be more supportive towards you if you had voiced your frustration in a more gentleman-like manner. Sorry about that, but I really dislike this whining. Even we who have no or only limited access to professional gear belong to the 5% of privileged people in the world that have enough food, shelter, some level of security and stability, computers and permanent internet access. We should be glad everyday that we have this freedom and even some money left for expensive hobbies. We should be very happy just for that.

It looks like you have difficulties to deal with setbacks and disappointments. It is difficult, but obviously I'm much more hardboiled. I'm not going to list all my setbacks and disappointments, that would be a very long list. I just pick one of them: in the late 90's I followed the 'free-energy'-scene. Every month there was an announcement for a new 'energy-device'. I went to every congress and meeting in my area, read books and magazines, invested considerable time and energy into the subject. Looking at nature, how it works, it is clear that we are surrounded by 'free energy'. But, on a technical level, it was never really possible to collect or store that energy. Dozens of promises from developers and inventors, but they all were just pipe dreams that never worked. So it is with the 2/3" Scarlet. Red couldn't make it work, and that's it. We just have to move on.

I'm not sure, but I also believe your math is wrong. With a 2/3" sensor, the processing power would have been sufficient for 120 fps at 3k. With the bigger sensor it is not.

We really should have shut down the forums for a couple of days so that every hobbyist could have had the time to contemplate the situation, and deal with it in a mature fashion. Then such awful threads could have been avoided.

Another note: I'm not a professional, but I do know that filmmaking is a tough business. You need nerves of steel. And you need to communicate in a proper fashion, you must be the one that remains calm when everybody is flipping out.

Philipp, you can label me as a whiner if you want to. However, I speak for a large swathe of people. Yes, I am upset. Call it whining if you will. To me and to many, my complaint is legitimate. And I stand by it.

 

[Emanuel A.]

And yes, I am a creative as well... Will be happy to post my latest works soon. Cheers!

Hey bro', what/how are you doing? Sent you a message on skype, left another one directly to your voice mail. Different time zone is not eXcuse ) From now on, every X in the middle (but in the beginning, it would work out the same) takes the capital letter as due

LOL Nice to see you! (only 2nd part of this line is the supreme joke! ;-)

Saudades,

Emanuel

 

[Eric Lange]

I say we vote Kyle, "Off the Island!"

Kyle is entitled to his opinion...

I think the problem is that people don’t understand that design and engineering IS a non-linear iterative process.

I promise you, you never know exactly how it’s is going turn out until you have ALL of the pieces. And those usually only come together at the last hour. Meanwhile the world and your competitors are moving at a very fast pace. I’m sure there were a lot of internal struggles over this. It could even be that JIM was indeed an advocate for 3k smaller chip or some such but the engineering team could not perhaps close the gap for a product that actually made sense. Price point IS one of the principal design criteria (and its not arbitrary either) and I suspect that delivering what was originally presented as a sort of “conceptual visualization” once fully executed just didn’t work out in such a way that a reasonable system price point could be achieved… and probably would be detrimental to RED in the long run. These types of realizations can unfortunately come very late in the game. Look at all the other physical prototypes from other manufacturers that you have seen over the years that disappear for long periods of time or all together.

If it was that easy it would have been done already.

They are not building a new toaster oven or lawn mower…

I think there seems to be an overstated confidence set against a procedural misunderstanding from potential buyers, coupled with global events beyond anyone’s control. These kinds of actions and reactions are purely symptomatic of a much larger set of processes. You have to rise above it and look at the big picture. RED are in the same boat in that regard.

I would be more upset if RED had followed through on systems that would basically get them into real trouble.

The future is not assured by any means.

E

 

[Häakon]

This is why Apple and Canon don't pre-announce internal development plans. Some people latch on to them. RED's openness and sense of community is very different than most companies I've ever encountered. Clearly some people can't handle it. The majority appreciates it.

Yeap, this.

I've learned that until it's actually delivered and in my hands I'm not going to assume anything about RED's production. It took me a little while to get used to this way of thinking, but when you do you'll realize how amazing RED is that they openly share their thoughts and respond to direct feedback from their customers while in the development stage. No other company does it like this. Things can (and do) change by the day around here, but it's almost always for the better. What Scarlet has evolved into is nothing short of mind blowing, and that it can be had for under 10 grand is almost silly. They will never be able to please all of the people all of the time, but we're getting better end products because of their willingness to have an open discussion. There is no doubt about that.

 

[Kyle Presley]

I did read it carefully, not really cool to throw that in my face... And the title of this thread does you no favors as well.

Fraud? No... They are JUST as upset as we are over this

Then what part of my argument are you countering? Or are you agreeing with me? I don't understand. Really I don't. I am not trying to blow you off at all. I am trying to make it clear what I am saying and what I am not.

Accusing someone of fraud is a very serious charge. I don't believe we were defrauded at all. I believe we and our ardent fervor and support were forgotten. I was raised to be a man of my word and to be accountable for it. It's the same standard I hold Red to. I believe RED should have either followed through on the Scarlet, or said "sorry guys, it didn't work out and here's why..."

 

[Gabriel Winebrenner]

I am so glad I didn't buy a bunch of 16mm glass. That stuff is almost worthless now.

My A-Cam DII will gladly scavenge for the worthless S16 glass now. 3 thousand dollar prime lens?... How about $150?

Mwahahahahahhahah! I'll buy that for a dollar!

 

[DCC Erickson]

This is the world's most tiresome thread. Bye.