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Docu zoom lens help (DZO Film - Angenieux - Fujinon ...)

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Brent Van den Abbeele

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Hi,

I'm so stuck on deciding which lenses to take with me on a 12 episode travel documentary television show. The A cam would mostly film interviews, people talking and basic scenes, the B cam can take tele shots and very wide angles. I'm talking about the A camera in this post.
I have the Fujinon 19-90 (first version), but it's just not sharp enough in my taste. They want to have the show future proof and finalize in 4K.

What would you all prefer (if you don't consider budget for a second)?

Angenieux was my first thought. The 28-76 optimo spherical in combination with the 15-40. Total of about 30.000 euro.
But then I saw some comparisons between the DZO 20-55 and the 15-40 and the DZO actually look really good. They have a complete set with a bigger range: 20-55 and 50-125.

The biggest problem seems the range. For doc style shooting I think 28-76 is a more used range than DZO's 20-55.

What are your thoughts?
 
Two of my friends bought DZO zooms. Both wanted to immediately return them as the focus scales where completely off / the lenses could not be colimated / shimmed to get the focus scales to match the actual focus distance. No major fault but basically the scales needs to be replaced / re engraved or use tape and magic marker or what ever. But yes they did not want to keep the lenses and DZO told them that the fault was within limits of their standards... When the lens focus at 7 meters the scale reads 15 meters... so not just of by a little. And that was after a good lens technican had gone though them. So yes, I guess DZO is nothing to count on if you want a lens that works well straight out of the box. Simply you need to modify it to make it work, not just shim it.
 
For doc style shooting, I think the range of the 20-55 is more useful than the 28-76. The extra range on the wide end means more to me than the extra tele. But that's my opinion, and it's really all up to personal shooting style... And the specific needs of the project.

As for optical qualities,I haven't used the 20-55 but it looks good on the clips I've seen online.
I have used the Angenieux 28-76 and it's a thing of great beauty. I would be surprised if the DZO can match the optical qualities of the Angenieux.

I'm also surprised that your Fujinon 19-90 isn't sharp enough...
 
Björn Benckert said:
Two of my friends bought DZO zooms. Both wanted to immediately return them as the focus scales where completely off / the lenses could not be colimated / shimmed to get the focus scales to match the actual focus distance. No major fault but basically the scales needs to be replaced / re engraved or use tape and magic marker or what ever. But yes they did not want to keep the lenses and DZO told them that the fault was within limits of their standards... When the lens focus at 7 meters the scale reads 15 meters... so not just of by a little. And that was after a good lens technican had gone though them. So yes, I guess DZO is nothing to count on if you want a lens that works well straight out of the box. Simply you need to modify it to make it work, not just shim it.
Click to expand...

Wow, that's obviously doesn't sound very good. This time it's the focus scales, the next lens might have a different flaw then... Very good to know!

Nils J. Nesse said:
For doc style shooting, I think the range of the 20-55 is more useful than the 28-76. The extra range on the wide end means more to me than the extra tele. But that's my opinion, and it's really all up to personal shooting style.

As for optical qualities,I haven't used the 20-55 but it looks good on the clips I've seen online.
I have used the Angenieux 28-76 and it's a thing of great beauty. I would be surprised if the DZO can match the optical qualities of the Angenieux.

I'm also surprised than your Fujinon 19-90 isn't sharp enough...
Click to expand...

About the sharpness. I'm comparing to a recent shoot where I used a combo of the fujinon and an arri master macro. That's where I noticed a big difference. But the difference will most likely not be as big as with an Angenieux off course... Need to do some lens tests once I know which direction to go.
 
Those Arri Master Macros are probably the sharpest lenses on the planet...

I would also consider the upcoming Tokina 25-75mm zoom (is it available yet?). Tokina is on a roll with their recent cine lens efforts. My guess would be that it sits somewhere in between DZO and Angenieux optical quality-wise, but possibly closer to the Angie... (I just wish it went to 21mm...)
 
I've shot with the DZO zooms. I like them, but have to say that they're not super sharp-- they have a slightly more "vintage" feel, with gentler contrast. (I'd think they'd cut nicely with my Nikon AIS primes.) So if your Fujinon isn't sharp enough, then I wouldn't go to the DZOs.

My limited experience with the Angenieux zooms is that they tend to be a little more "creamy" and have a little more "character" than the Fujinons, so it wouldn't be my first thought if you're missing perceived sharpness. The exception to this is the new Angenieux EZ series, which seem to me to emphasize sharpness more (and also feels a little more "clinical" to me-- more like the Fujinons)-- I'd recommend you check those out.

I haven't shot with the 19-90 v1, but have heard that v2 is noticeably sharper. So I think that'd be worth auditioning as well, if you can. (And in fact, might be worth checking out the 20-120 t3.5 as well.) That said, I'd be surprised if a zoom were able to match the Arri macro lenses you're talking about. But I'd have no concern about shooting footage that is "future-proof" with any of these lenses.

Nils suggestion of the Tokina 25-75 is a good one, but I don't think it's out yet. You could see how you like the ones that are-- the 11-20 and 50-135.
 
S35 doc filming is an interesting lens landscape at the moment. I see much of the shorter zooms discussed, but things like the Zeiss 21-100 T2.9-3.9, moderately made for doc shooting to be lightweight should be mentioned.

I'm keen on the Tokina 25-75mm T2.9 that's incoming. I'm expecting that design to be good and very useful as it's a smidge wider than the Optimo. But you'll need some glass to flesh out the long and wide end.

To that point I think a no brainer to always have is that Tokina 11-20mm T2.9. There still really isn't anything like it on the market. It does exhibit CA, but if you need a wide through ultra-wide zoom for S35 with minimal breathing it's pretty much the thing.

The trio with the Tokina 11-20mm T2.9 and the two DZO zooms of 20-55 and 55-125mm T2.9 is a nice little kit.

From experience I don't know if the Optimos are going to provide much more than your Cabrio in terms of sharpness/resolving power. I would position Alura zooms in the discuss if that's the look you're after.

Another consideration, though not parfocal are the Sigma and Tokina zooms. Sigma's 18-35 T2 has been popular due to it's cleaner look and speed.

Though a bigger lens, I do own and use the Zeiss 28-80 T2.9 for larger format filming and I have been renting the Premistas. I don't find them too big to tackle a doc, but they are certainly in size and weight bigger than many of the lenses we're discussing here.
 
Canon 17-120 and call it a day. It's THE workhorse s35 lens for this type of work(ENG/Doc). Or if you don't need it as wide on the back-end, the Canon 25-250. A friend demo'd it recently and said it's incredible.
 
What exactly are you shooting on?

If you can wait (and get an LPL mount) Arri is releasing their 24-75mm Signature Zoom, which will almost certainly have the level of quality you're looking for. It's coming out later this year, though.

It'll have around 45mm coverage, so the angle of view at full coverage is around the same or wider as the Canon 17-120 at it's native coverage.
 
As someone that has spent a large portion of their career over the last almost 2 1/2 decades doing "doc style" shooting(sports/news/follow/features), these little 3x style zooms don't seem very useful, especially in a truly uncontrolled environment. As much as I love my 17-120, even that is pretty limited compared to the 13x and 22x lenses I've spent most of my years with. If it's a s35 sensor cam, 25 is far from wide and 75 is far from tight. You've gotta pair it with something wide and something long, so you're back to three lenses, at least. In this kind of world, you want ONE lens that can live on the camera and cover you for almost any situation. Maybe it's just the old news dog in me talking, but you can't always place the camera where you want it/need it. That's why you need a lens with a long zoom range. It's too bad we never got a true s35 version of the 2/3" 13x4.5. That lens literally covered 95% of what I shot. So far, the 17-120 has been the closest.
 
Thanks everyone for all the comments. I've go a lot more lenses to check out...

About the doc, it won't be a guerilla style doc where I need my camera ready 24/7. In that case I wouldn't go with a RED where every setting takes a bit longer than an FS7 for example. I will be 90 percent interviews and small scenes where I have time to take the right shot (not so much that I can do everything on prime lenses, but still enough to make some nice images). And about 10 percent would be guerilla style. I don't want to have the canon 17-120 lens for example as the images don't 'feel' as nice as my Fujinon. I just wanted something a bit more sharp, but maybe I'm just exaggerating... Also, I have a B cam for tele shots. So I don't really have to swap lenses, just camera's.

Still, the V2 of the Fujinon might be a better option than my current one.
Then the Alura zoom might also be an option...

So many good options. Thanks everyone!

Phil Holland said:
S35 doc filming is an interesting lens landscape at the moment. I see much of the shorter zooms discussed, but things like the Zeiss 21-100 T2.9-3.9, moderately made for doc shooting to be lightweight should be mentioned.

I'm keen on the Tokina 25-75mm T2.9 that's incoming. I'm expecting that design to be good and very useful as it's a smidge wider than the Optimo. But you'll need some glass to flesh out the long and wide end.

To that point I think a no brainer to always have is that Tokina 11-20mm T2.9. There still really isn't anything like it on the market. It does exhibit CA, but if you need a wide through ultra-wide zoom for S35 with minimal breathing it's pretty much the thing.

The trio with the Tokina 11-20mm T2.9 and the two DZO zooms of 20-55 and 55-125mm T2.9 is a nice little kit.

From experience I don't know if the Optimos are going to provide much more than your Cabrio in terms of sharpness/resolving power. I would position Alura zooms in the discuss if that's the look you're after.

Another consideration, though not parfocal are the Sigma and Tokina zooms. Sigma's 18-35 T2 has been popular due to it's cleaner look and speed.

Though a bigger lens, I do own and use the Zeiss 28-80 T2.9 for larger format filming and I have been renting the Premistas. I don't find them too big to tackle a doc, but they are certainly in size and weight bigger than many of the lenses we're discussing here.
Click to expand...

Hi Phil,

didn't look at the Alura's for some reason... Looks like a great option. Is this the "new" Fujinon cabrio?


Joshua Cadmium said:
What exactly are you shooting on?

If you can wait (and get an LPL mount) Arri is releasing their 24-75mm Signature Zoom, which will almost certainly have the level of quality you're looking for. It's coming out later this year, though.

It'll have around 45mm coverage, so the angle of view at full coverage is around the same or wider as the Canon 17-120 at it's native coverage.
Click to expand...

Would love to have this one, but this might be a little more money than I would like to spend. I still want to upgrade my Scarlet W to Gemini for this project and just invested in the Komodo.
 
Worth mentioning: if you get the DZO from Duclos, they add in 2 years of professional service / backfocus adjustment.

Even if you don't live in Los Angeles, seems worth it to me!

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv
 
The 17-120 is the way to go if the weight/length and iris ramp aren't a problem. It's a great range, but so is the 19-90. FWIW the mk2 Cabrio bears little difference to the mk1 and no appreciable change in sharpness. They changed the front element retaining ring and a bit with the coating, I believe. I've shot them side-by-side at least a dozen times (on shows due to availability), capturing/finishing in 4K, and there's never been a noticeable difference at all. So, maybe give your cabrio a 2nd look.
 
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