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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DJI RONIN - independent review and in-depth test

Constantine - thank you for the kind words of support and understanding and for the valuable input. This is what this thread is all about. This gimbal tech is still very new and we need to share ideas and exchange constructive dialogue if we want this tech to succeed...
I am really interested to see how the Serene helps mitigating the issues you get when trying to walk with Easy Rig. Easy Rig on its own will be a great assist for gimbal work - providing one doesn't need to walk. This is especially true if you need to do close proximity shot and shot with high elevation difference (going from fee to face, etc...).

By all means - please stay and keep the conversation going!

Cheers

:sifone: Peter
 
thanks Peter.

All I can say is that the easyrig is a great platform to work with and adding improved gear to eliminate its little problems make it a really good platform.

Johan is a very nice guy,and he is very open in innovation , I know for a fact that I can totally redesign easyrig to be the ultimate tool.

But right now, what we have is a platform that you can walk with no problem walking away from the stationary use of the easyrig 100%.

the serene is almost completed in the new updated version. It stabilises vertical and side to side errors, as well as allowing on the fly the full extension of the easyrig string. That means high to low mode on the fly in motion.

Its also adds a good 10 cm-15 cm of height to the existing easyrig possible height, depending on the angle you are using.Its very small, it weights 1,2kg and it doesnt create a monster troll rig.

thanks for your kind words

regards
 
Peter Majtan said:
Demetri - you are little contradicting yourself when you are aware of human motion strangulating into gimbal shots and yet you think gimbals could replace steadicam. Not at all...
Click to expand...

Peter, I don't think that gimbal can replace steadicam, what I was trying to say is that for me it makes more financial sense to get a $5000 Ronin and train myself and my assistant to operate it properly, than to rent a Steadicam op on every shoot that requires smooth motion in a frame.

Thanks for your detailed explanation of the differences between the two!
 
About the steadicam direct adaptation.

The problem is more in the connection method, and not bi - axial. In theory both methods gimbal and steadicam sled with the addition of arm and vest stabilise the same number of axis.

differences are

sled is rotating around the arm in almost CG (balanced a little bottom heavy and in some cases 50/50 depending on the skil) using the steadicam gimbal and also in DB

electronic gimbals do not rotate around the steadicam arm , they rotate and stabilise the camera inside their structure , but the total gimbal is placed OFF balanced on the arm if to be mounted directly. And that is the reason of the errors Iam referring too.

Last lets not forget the most important factor of all

Control of the camera pan tilt and if needed roll.

Steadicam is a very dynamic tool, if you want to equal the dynamic moves that your body arm can perform with motors, there is no match to that of the so far viewed gimbals. If you also want to match the precision same thing. And last if you want to match the ergonomics and confort in performing those moves, again there is no match.

But dont forget Steadicam has been around and improved for decades . Gimbals are very new

We have managed to solve the control with a new method . Now we just need to show you the proof of the concept.

That we will try demo on IBC 2014 and its patented already in USA.

No other info will be available for it until IBC 2014 due to obvious reasons.

kind regards
 
We most definitely need support gear like the Easy Rig - but they need to evolve. The Serene sure seems like a step in right direction - can't wait to try it... / hint, hint... ;o)

To continue my previous post - there are some crucial differences between the Steadicam vs Gimbal approach...
Steadicam certainly helps to distribute the weight of the system to more ergonomic positions that allow for more extended shots when compared to handheld operation of a gimbal.
But gimbals on the other hand have more freedom of movement - you can squeeze them through places Steadicam can only dream about.
This same freedom also allows to pass the gimbal from one operator to another, or even between an operator and another support platform.
This is beautifully demonstrated in the original DJI "oner" demo (link in my first post)...
Gimbal - in particular the Ronin - are also much faster to setup and get ready to shoot then Steadicam...

The Ronin is no toy. With kitted camera in proper cine configuration you are looking at 10+ kg...
I am 6'4" (193 cm) and squash the scales at 275 lbs (125 kg) and despite my beer-belly I am able to operate the Ronin handheld to a max of 10 min in a single shot.
One of the fringe benefits of shooting with the Ronin is that in those two days I have lost 4 lbs in the summer heat of Japan... ;o)
But your average person out there is kidding themselves if they expect to handheld the Ronin (or any other gimbal out there) with a fully-kitted RED for any prolonged time.
Think fully kitted RED ONE + Optimo. If you are comfortable with that - you will be comfortable with a gimbal...

The strength of this new tech is in its versatility...

I am looking at the Ronin as the heart of my business. As most of you know I have always specialised in "motion" cinematography (where camera moves - please don't confuse with "motion pictures").
Aerials have always been my niche, as well as Steadicam, dolly, crane, etc... - even skiing with a 635 ARRI in Himalayas... ;o)
Ronin is perfectly suited to my business. It will be a self-contained 3-axis stabilised unit that can be then freely swapped between various "moving" platforms - whether that be just a human operator, or a Russian Arm on a car, Steadicam, crane, RC flying platforms, full-sized flying platforms, you name it...
This is the true strength of this system...

Putting the "true" motion in a Motion Pictures... :reddevil:

:sifone: Peter
 
some info about best gear for minimizing the error mentioned from me above from available on the market products. That means that there is possibility for other methods but at present time is

Exo vest - it eliminates a very big degree of your hips motion as it has pivot design. that means less errors moving from the body-vest to the socket block and arm going to the camera.

Get a Pro GPI or a G50- arm. there is a huge difference in performance versus other arms , I lean towards the Pro, but G50- is also great.

Expensive?? yes for sure...

Other arms like the raptor are good, on the cheaper side

Most important, dont think for one second that everything will be magical be stabilised if you arent a trained steadicam operator.

you might need even more skills to operate this hybrid, and even more scales if joystick is to be involved so dont fool your self.

get trained and gain experience. I have done that for decades so Peter . there is no easy way out working with steadicam technology.

skill is the most important factor of all

regards
 
Constantine - I like what you are hinting at with the new control system - really look forward to what you guys have come up with at IBC - might even come down myself in person... ;o)

I am also working on a new controller. While I am super comfortable using the traditional RC-style controller - in my business I am the one in charge of the moving platforms.
Basically I am the one carrying the Ronin, flying the RC heli, or operating the crane.
I have a "traditional" camera op in my team remotely controlling the gimbal - and he is certainly not happy with the RC solution...

This is yet another advantage of the Ronin - DJI is using standard FUTABA protocols.
What that means is that you can link the Ronin to any Futaba controller out there (with a compatible wireless spectrum) - we for example prefer the 14SG.
But more importantly - this also means that you can design and build your own controller based around Futaba hardware.
And this is what I am developing. A controller that is much more "familiar" for the "traditional" camera operator.
I am lucky to be surrounded with so many crucial companies to our industry here in Japan - one of them specialises in remote camera platforms that are commonly used at Olympics.
If you have seen the cameras following divers into the pool, "swimming" underwater alongside the swimmers, or following runners at the 100 m sprint - these are the guys...

They have a solution that allows remote operation of any camera platform (including these gimbals) via a tripod-mounted remote head.
The wireless monitor is mounted on the tripod "representing" the camera and the operator just moves the tripod as he would do if the camera was on it...
The motion of the head is then translated and transmitted to the remote platform...
They are also working on some other solutions with me - but these are not yet public...

Exciting times ahead, indeed...

:sifone: Peter
 
tripod encoder based controls are very good, better than joystick for 2 operators mode as you dont need to be a joystick wizard.

Our solution is for one man operation but also great for 2 operators mode.

there are some limited factors on the current gimbals, but it can work out in a goo degree.

nice Peter.

regards
 
Peter Majtan said:
Now you got me hooked - just reel me in slowly... ;o)
Really can't wait till IBC!

:sifone: Peter
Click to expand...

you thought I was making a pan tilt bar didnt you? hahaha kidding.

Peter you havent seen this before and I know you have seen a lot.

thats why we have patent it in USA.



regards.
 
I was actually thinking that you guys are working on something more along these lines...

hotgears_pic.jpg


http://gulfcamera.com/accessories-5/hot-gears-remote-camera-system/

The more solutions there are - the merrier if you ask me... :reddevil:

:sifone: Peter
 
Peter Majtan said:
Ok fellas, here are some first bites...

Few things to keep in mind while you watch:

- this is BETA unit still on the first firmware (that has been already updated twice since I have shot this)
- this is my first shoot with the unit - I literarily had no practice at all - this first footage is that practice...
- this is also shot without me adjusting any of the functions / features in the user-friendly smart-phone app
- 90% of the shots have no stabilisation what so ever applied in post and the few that do was focused on removing the bounce of the bungee cords
- only exception to the above are the two 105 mm shots near the opening which needed a little help - but hey, its 105 mm and given all the above - just look at what you can accomplish...
- no tricks such as high-speed or quick cuts - ALL shot at 24P and I have kept the cuts as long as possible to keep the video interesting
- the second to last shot with Morgan Fisher has been slowed down to fill the edit gap to match the music - but it was still shot at 24P...
- used two lenses - the EF 17-40mm f/4.0L and FD 35-105mm f/3.5 - all respective focal lengths are marked in bottom left corner along with the mode of operating the Ronin...
- I didn't have my Paralinx gear with me at that time, nor a thin LCD cable - so was forced to use the 5" TOUCH on camera folded forward - half the time I can't see what I am shooting (let alone being able to check focus)

Is it perfect? Nope...
The purpose of these beta tests is to use the gear in real-world scenarios and provide feedback to the manufacturer to fine-tune the product. This is not unlike what RED is doing...
Never the less - especially given all the above - I was amazed with the results and would have been proud to have shot any of these on a steadicam...
Bottom line - if the product was "only" as good as I have received it - I would have bought it without a hesitation...

There are two concurrent routes to improve the RONIN:

A. Improve myself. 95% of the bumps in the footage is my fault for not adjusting properly the follow-mode settings... The most important thing to do is to practice with the RONIN to fully understand its capabilities and to take advantage of the various controls, settings and assists as I learn to understand them and how to use them (which I haven't done for this first test). Just like any professional equipment you need to master it. Ronin is no exception. It will only be as good as its operator...

B. Improve and fine-tune the control SW. As I have said - DJI has already done two new releases since I gave shot this video exactly one week ago. Just like with RED - things will get a lot better before they ship the units and will continue to improve and add features as the feedback comes back from end users...

Hardware-wise the unit is perfect. They are working on an optional accessories to allow fitting of longer lenses and cameras, but for shooting RED Epic / Scarlet (and all the other similar shaped or smaller cameras) with proper cine glass and accessories - this unit is ready for showtime.
Just don't try to mount stuff you wouldn't mount to a steadicam (like Optimos LOL)...
Again - this was me getting to know the unit. I will be shooting an actual demo next week in proper cine configs with MB, FIX, Paralinx, etc...
But I know that people are desperate for some demo footage - and this is more then good enough for that...

Original music composed and performed by our own Tiko Lasola - thanks Tiko!!!

https://soundcloud.com/colasola

Also big thanks to Andrew Thomas - producer / creative director friend of mine - who not only allowed me to test the Ronin on his live production, but he also helped me the next day and drove the car... Many thanks Andy!


Enjoy!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJBqyjtLpdQ

:sifone: Peter
Click to expand...

Nice one Peter! Thanks for taking the time to shoot that and write that post.
Adding the lens info of the bottom of the screen was a great idea. It really helps undesrtand what you can get with that kind of tools.
One question if you don't mind, did you use the thumb joystick to control the tilt of the camera?
 
Peter Majtan said:
I was actually thinking that you guys are working on something more along these lines...

hotgears_pic.jpg


http://gulfcamera.com/accessories-5/hot-gears-remote-camera-system/

The more solutions there are - the merrier if you ask me... :reddevil:

:sifone: Peter
Click to expand...

yes I thought you did..

wheels and pan bar are the best for 2 operator modes, depending of the expertise . The wheels are more for ops that are used to them. Thats something I never mastered well, but the tripod encoder based bars are the easiest for any camera operator to operate in 2 people mode.

Then its our solution. Never seen before. Working hard on it. a lot of effort and brain storming there. the more solutions the better for all.

regards
 
vincent kardasik said:
Nice one Peter! Thanks for taking the time to shoot that and write that post.
Adding the lens info of the bottom of the screen was a great idea. It really helps undesrtand what you can get with that kind of tools.
One question if you don't mind, did you use the thumb joystick to control the tilt of the camera?
Click to expand...

Hi Vincent!

The thumb joystick is not ready yet - all the shots in this first test are in the follow-mode.
But to be honest - even if the joystick was available - I would have not used it - you could never get the kind of precision and smoothness with a joystick while holding a 10 kg rig in the same hand.
But that is just me - others might prefer the joystick...

I did play with the RC remote and you can also adjust this to a spectacular smoothness - I ended up shooting a shot with the Ronin in its stand as if it was on a tripod.
I then paned & tilted the head with the controller - and it was spectacular. I was really amazed. The way the gimbal responds to a remote commodes is amazing...
I am also testing a table-top macro in this configuration...

:sifone: Peter
 
When I look at this footage I can see what looks like about 50% of the footsteps you take. It seems quite noticeable.

This is not typical?
 
Bohdan Klos said:
When I look at this footage I can see what looks like about 50% of the footsteps you take. It seems quite noticeable.

This is not typical?
Click to expand...

hey Bohdan have a good read up at pages 12 and 13 of this thread, it will make it more understand-able about vertical stabilization footsteps and available solutions and methods.

kind regards
 
constantine Tirintzis said:
hey Bohdan have a good read up at pages 12 and 13 of this thread, it will make it more understand-able about vertical stabilization footsteps and available solutions and methods.

kind regards
Click to expand...

Thanks.

There is quite a lot of parallax visible I the footsteps. Will be interesting to see this footage stabilized.
 
Bohdan Klos said:
When I look at this footage I can see what looks like about 50% of the footsteps you take. It seems quite noticeable.

This is not typical?
Click to expand...

Dobrej den Ostraváku! (I used to live in Novy Jičín / Šenov when I was a kid...)

As Constantine pointed out (thank you Constantine!) - we have discussed this over the last few pages in great detail.
THIS is the key difference between Steadicam and Gimbals, exaggerated by the fact that this was my first test with the Ronin.
I know then more I will work with the Ronin - the better I will get at managing this issue.
This has nothing to do with the Ronin - this is 100% issue with the motion platform - in this case human operator - myself...

:sifone: Peter
 
Peter Majtan said:
Hi Vincent!

The thumb joystick is not ready yet - all the shots in this first test are in the follow-mode.
But to be honest - even if the joystick was available - I would have not used it - you could never get the kind of precision and smoothness with a joystick while holding a 10 kg rig in the same hand.
But that is just me - others might prefer the joystick...

I did play with the RC remote and you can also adjust this to a spectacular smoothness - I ended up shooting a shot with the Ronin in its stand as if it was on a tripod.
I then paned & tilted the head with the controller - and it was spectacular. I was really amazed. The way the gimbal responds to a remote commodes is amazing...
I am also testing a table-top macro in this configuration...

:sifone: Peter
Click to expand...

Thanks for these details Peter!
 
Peter - beautiful stuff. I wanted to go to Japan beforehand. now I REALLY want to go. This is really nice,and I think you make great points about learning - these are relatively new tools - human mastery of new tools takes time and effort.
 
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