Defending RED, Camera (Brand) Wars, Shot On What?!

[Robert Cook]

Not to mention the 1st Class service from RED. Chelsea at Product Support rules! We send our
Dragon in for its annual check up; cleaned, new Battery, new top fan at great price and back fast and shooting! Thanks RED TEAM!!
Haters going hate....as for me and our house....RED.

 

[Marc Wielage]

A subsequent article, Sundance 2019: Here Are the Cameras Used to Shoot This Year’s Documentaries, reveals the surprising information that Canon and Sony are way out in front for capture devices used for documentaries. There are some Red projects, but only a relative handful listed.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

A subsequent article, Sundance 2019: Here Are the Cameras Used to Shoot This Year’s Documentaries, reveals the surprising information that Canon and Sony are way out in front for capture devices used for documentaries.

Why is that surprising ?
They are designed for that purpose and more practical run n' gun, by the companies with experience in that domain since magnetic tape.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

.

It's extremely hard to keep track of where the word of mouth fashion lands on budgets, but perhaps my biggest issue with much of the misinformation or disinformation is that:

- RED is too expensive to work with
- RED is low budget oriented
- RED is difficult to work with

If this has hit you, feel free to utilize my framesToDataRate app on PHFX | Tools or heck simply point the production in my direction to discuss workflow.

In higher-end it is not related to file size, it is related to wavelets, UI, black shading, and many other unique variables coming out of a new, progressive and flexibility-prioritized system.

Those things you mention are obviously generalizations and out of context, but some things cannot be "disrupted", and with enough minuses in the group think dismissive atitude with some is a result, and people will babble anything to defend their attitude. Some things are founded, some are not, but that's the price of a progressive system aiming at a wide market, where one side will perceive flaws in higher-end workflow factors (file size, cine-rigging etc) and other in flexibility factors (wavelets, compactness, modularity etc).

 

[Aharon Rothschild]

Red prior to Gemini has focused on high resolution cameras with about the same dynamic range as a Canon c200. These are very useful for films with a lot of CG elements and plates and commercials and directors who need to re-frame etc and that's where they've seen the most use.

Before we go any farther I'd like to invite Phil Holland or anyone here who's tested these cameras to post R3d snapshots of xyla or other charts or we can default to the existing raw footage of tests shot by Geoff Boyle. https://cinematography.net/CineRant/2018/07/30/personal-comments-on-the-2018-cml-camera-evaluations/

 

[Joachim Hoge]

Thanks for sharing (even more) of your well explained thoughts Phil.
I've been in the RED world since our first Epic-M back in 2011, and after getting the Revolva mount, the final piece fell into place. I've loved the cameras ever since we got our first, but have sometimes high up on a snowy mountain cursed the "huge" ND filters and matte box I had to drag up there (and change in the freezing cold).
Its now 8 years since we shot the first images in 5K and they look amazing and current to this day. 8 yeas prior to 2011, I either shot on film (if I was lucky) or some sort of tape based SD camera. The 35mm stuff still holds up, all the nature/sport stuff I shot on 16mm or tape is really only usable as "archive" material. I think the RED footage from 2011 will probably still look pretty good another 8 years from now. The step RED took (and are still taking) is almost mind boggling.
That people can't appreciate this is beyond me.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

DSMC2 + Teradek AC + Revolva + Production module = Red supercharged


There is also one other crucial thing but that's for another topic.

 

[Milano Questa]

There's no point in defending Red. Pretty words and lenghty posts won't make up for what Red lacks compared to ARRI. They'll never be in same league.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Red prior to Gemini has focused on high resolution cameras with about the same dynamic range as a Canon c200. These are very useful for films with a lot of CG elements and plates and commercials and directors who need to re-frame etc and that's where they've seen the most use.

Before we go any farther I'd like to invite Phil Holland or anyone here who's tested these cameras to post R3d snapshots of xyla or other charts or we can default to the existing raw footage of tests shot by Geoff Boyle. https://cinematography.net/CineRant/2018/07/30/personal-comments-on-the-2018-cml-camera-evaluations/

Why Geoff, do not post with the Xyla chart?
*so we end up saying bullshit on the dynamic range on RED and Other brand?
In this way it is the same for everyone.

if you want to play and download here. OLD DISCUSSION.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?166655-DR-a-good-discussion!!

 

[luigivaltulini]

There's no point in defending Red. Pretty words and lenghty posts won't make up for what Red lacks compared to ARRI. They'll never be in same league.

You're right ok , we understand dear Milano Questa .
Now you're just breaking the balls with the usual repetitive words.

 

[Aharon Rothschild]

Why Geoff, do not post with the Xyla chart?
*so we end up saying bullshit on the dynamic range on RED and Other brand?
In this way it is the same for everyone.

if you want to play and download here. OLD DISCUSSION.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?166655-DR-a-good-discussion!!

Did you follow the link?

From the first paragraph there:

"I want to stress that these are purely personal impressions and that you should check out the raw files at https:/cmltests.net and also get your hands on a camera to see how it feels for you before making any decisions.
When we were shooting we used an Odyssey and a Canon 24″ monitor to see what we were doing."

Also I'll have a look at the files you posted and thanks for putting those up. If you wouldn't mind pointing me to the specific files of a chart or side by side that shows dynamic range that would be great

 

[luigivaltulini]

Did you follow the link?

From the first paragraph there:

"I want to stress that these are purely personal impressions and that you should check out the raw files at https:/cmltests.net and also get your hands on a camera to see how it feels for you before making any decisions.
When we were shooting we used an Odyssey and a Canon 24″ monitor to see what we were doing."

Also I'll have a look at the files you posted and thanks for putting those up. If you wouldn't mind pointing me to the specific files of a chart or side by side that shows dynamic range that would be great

If you want to do precise tests, you must use the instrumentation can not use a monitor and a recorder!
Use a Textronix waveform this helps you a lot to understand ...
However the blackshading on Monstro last 3 minutes in manual if to go in automatic are 40 minutes.
I saw the link with several colleagues and colourist now in the studio. Look this files in 4k Oled .
What happened with the face? there are almost 2 stops of light difference, why this choice?
In the rest of the images no news Monstro is cleaner and better than 1 stop in the shadows, you could push to T22 and it would be the same noise of ALEXA to t16, ALEXA holds better than 1 stop in the highlights, we see that at T2. 8 the limit , and for Monstro at T4, so the DR is exactly the same, except for Monstro you have much more resolution to use.
Perhaps the only thing is that Monstro tries more green in the under exposion.
The rest of the over exposures are unusable in both cases.
However on the field in identical conditions Monstro has a better image of ALexa,this is the reality of the facts., it is enough that you go out and try to shoot something and then go back in post and you will realize when this camera is really beautiful. The graphs speak up to a certain point.

Another thing, Phil is doing an "extreme" job god only knows how much time he loses in devoting himself to all this, there is only to admire these people.





link photo:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=13BleZ6GCOiMPnCCXOAKKYtv6K-IPdksS

[/url]as by luigi valtulini, su Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]Screen Shot 2019-02-06 at 21.22.59 by luigi valtulini, su Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]Screen Shot 2019-02-06 at 21.22.46 by luigi valtulini, su Flickr[/IMG]

 

[rand thompson]

Luigi,


Here are two Arri Alexa Mini Raw clips and two Red Monstro Raw clips (at ISO 3200) on an ACEScct Timeline. I didn't see any additional noise in the Monstro clips after being raised to ISO 3200. Plus you can get a rough color match between the two cameras.

here is a link to a Screen capture Video of all four clips playing back twice in "Full Screen" Mode inside of Davinci Resolve.

72mb

https://we.tl/t-47md0KIKQP

 

[Marc Wielage]

Why is that surprising ? They are designed for that purpose and more practical run n' gun, by the companies with experience in that domain since magnetic tape.

I think it's surprising that all of the Oscar-nominated films, all of the Sundance dramatic award winners, and most of the Sundance documentaries avoided using Red cameras. There's nothing inherently wrong or bad about Red cameras that would preclude using them for documentaries.

 

[Phil Holland]

@luigi, I need to dig through CML, but does anybody know what ND filters they used in that side by side?

I have alarmingly different results, but I think the variance is the ND itself.

 

[luigivaltulini]

@luigi, I need to dig through CML, but does anybody know what ND filters they used in that side by side?

I have alarmingly different results, but I think the variance is the ND itself.

I do not know Phil.
it is one of the test is hallucinating .. I do not know I also think that they use ND filters, but do not know which ones.




thanks Rand, I just wanted to understand.
I do not use Acesst, I'm traditional and therefore I miss 2 light stops. I also imported the clip into my Monstro to understand and is underexposed, compared to ALExa.
If Monstro would have been at the same opening in that image you could see very well how much is better than ALEXA.
The nice thing and that even if it is underexposed by 2 stops is still a good image.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

There's nothing inherently wrong or bad about Red cameras that would preclude using them for documentaries.

I have said many times that the Gemini 5K is the best camera around these days for commercial and documentary work. More expensive than Dragon but better value than Monstro or Helium.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I think it's surprising that all of the Oscar-nominated films, all of the Sundance dramatic award winners, and most of the Sundance documentaries avoided using Red cameras.

To me it's more disappointing but not surprising.

Now with Prores support, on board LUT support, 2:1 raw, Teradek AC, Revolva, new production module, advancements in colour science, and Gemini, the likelihood of wider adoption in that domain has increased.

Especially with Gemini. 2:1 16 bit raw in 4K gives a beautiful filmic texture for those who don't want higher acuity.
With new base CS there are no more exploding saturated highs, 2:1 compression is practically lossless with fantastic density of 16 bits for post and organicity of tonal gradations and 4K is closer to S35 film texture. All combined present a serious step which many are likely to appreciate in drama, having steered away from Red before.

I've seen good indications of change.

Ranger camera body is another potential.

There's nothing inherently wrong or bad about Red cameras that would preclude using them for documentaries.

Ergonomics, functionality and practicality play a crucial role for documentary form and cameras prioritizing more cine workflow are limited in that. Internal NDs being a most important factor. Few have the time and luxury to fiddle with external NDs (or anything else non-existent in a run n' gun camera) and carry additional gear around for capturing unpredictable real-life scenarios. New electronic ND tech deserves serious consideration.

Black shading, power draw and other variables are also ball and chain. Understandable for a compact supercomputer munching 16 bit raw but limiting for those prioritizing shooting speed.

New technological advancements should enable taking care of UI lag, power draw and black shading and Red has shown the will for improvement and ability to adapt.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

@luigi, I need to dig through CML, but does anybody know what ND filters they used in that side by side?

I have alarmingly different results, but I think the variance is the ND itself.

I do not know Phil.
it is one of the test is hallucinating .. I do not know I also think that they use ND filters, but do not know which ones.

What ever it is, it is fixable with white balance.

 

[Morgan Ryan]

The one on top (Alexa?) has very slightly more greenish tint.

White balance differed.