Defending RED, Camera (Brand) Wars, Shot On What?!

[Björn Benckert]

The talk about this and that resolution is enough and current cameras are pretty much perfect and probably more than you ever need etc, etc...

To me all that is bullshit.

You really need to have your head in the sand to even think that way. Camera technology is not at its peak, we are just at the very base of the digital camera mountain.

Dynamic range will likly increase in multiples of hundreds same with resolution and noise ratios will likly drop at a similar scale, also framerates and light sensitivity will for sure increase madly. And its quite likly these things will happen very fast and in big leaps. We been on Cmos sensor tech for quite some time now the chance that some other tech will surface that trumps it is very likly just as digital trumfed film.

So all the talk about things being enough... its like saying floppydiscs are enough, who would realy need more storage then that?

 

[Ash Worth]

Observation over the years is that RED is chosen by more technical folks, given the requirements of operating RED cameras this is necessary, they bend more tech than artistic, hence the use of RED cameras in effects and action based films. The folks who bend more towards the artistic spectrum choose easier cameras to operate like Alexa or Canons. Therefore for awards the more artistic films are chosen.

Of course there are exceptions.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Observation over the years is that RED is chosen by more technical folks, given the requirements of operating RED cameras this is necessary, they bend more tech than artistic, hence the use of RED cameras in effects and action based films. The folks who bend more towards the artistic spectrum choose easier cameras to operate like Alexa or Canons. Therefore for awards the more artistic films are chosen.

Of course there are exceptions.

Where does operating a film camera fit in? Artistic or technical?

 

[Nick Morrison]

A friend of mine who shoots on Alexa a lot admitted to me last week that Monstro and Gemini are probably two of the best cameras out there right now - especially Monstro. A lot of it is also creature comfort - it's hard for people to try something new when what they use already is great.

But Gemini and Monstro are turning heads, as they should.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

I hope reds future sensor will have more fps at 8k. I still think that epic x was very epic when it came out with 5k 96fps and 4k 120. I wish we se 125 fps in 8k in next sensor generation.

One other thing that is never brought up when comparing red to other brands is hdrx. I still think its a neat little feature that can could potentially save your as. But I have been very laze to use it yet.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

"What camera did you use to shoot this!?!"

"What lights did you use?!?!!?"

"What mics did you use to record this!?!!??"

"What renderer did you use!?!"

"What editing software did you use!??!?!"

"What DAW do you use to make music!?!?!?!"

"What pencil do you use your drawings are amazing!??!!"

"What brushes do you use your paintings are amazing!?!?!"


Stop.

These things matter. ;-) Same thing with story structure - it matters. But at the end of the day, movies (or ads) are worth more than the sum of their parts.

Another thing worth mentioning. Just because a film made it into a festival, or even into production, doesn't mean it is any good.

Some films are chosen for political reasons, too. Which is an insult to the other candidates.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Divisiveness is not new to this industry. Feature production and Television production were once separated by a chasm. Film shooters vs video shooters and I can even remember people thinking you were slumming it if you used Arri film cameras not Panavision cameras.

Red owners too can sometimes be guilty of this strange and tribal "them and us" game when it comes to cameras. I suppose it's partly human nature to make a choice and then become defensive with others who make another choice. The evidence is clear on the capabilities of modern digital cinema cameras in the wonderfull projects and great works of cinematography that are presently being created with all the top of the line cameras.

All these cameras share way more in common than they do differences.

Presently I have a big Drama project in the planning stages and there are literally hundreds if not thousands of choices I and others will need to make. Choosing the camera is only a small one. I will probably go with Monstro as I am familiar with it but for whatever reason I end up with an Arri or Panasonic or Sony all will be good in the world. Decisions in regards to lensing, lighting, blocking and even Production Design and casting will have magnitudes higher impact on the final image.

 

[Zack Birlew]

I think, for the most part, RED and the REDUser community have ironed out most of the original issues people had with the cameras. Workflows have been established, quirks have been fixed by firmware, and something as simple as proven basic setting practices have helped RED cameras be a mostly "turn it on and press record"-type of affair. If anybody is complaining today, it's because of new quirks and quality control issues that are bound to pop up from time to time, much like the mag issues people had when Helium first came out. Otherwise, RED cameras are just as easy as any other.

 

[Marc Wielage]

All these cameras share way more in common than they do differences.

Presently I have a big Drama project in the planning stages and there are literally hundreds if not thousands of choices I and others will need to make. Choosing the camera is only a small one. I will probably go with Monstro as I am familiar with it but for whatever reason I end up with an Arri or Panasonic or Sony all will be good in the world. Decisions in regards to lensing, lighting, blocking and even Production Design and casting will have magnitudes higher impact on the final image.

I think Tom is 100% right.

 

[Sergio Perez]

the tales of reliability failure in the early days , the Dragon’s early issues, OLPF situation were partly responsible for the results we see in the high end cinema world. Word of mouth was not good and Arri always maintainded a steady and rock solid reliability. There’s also a very old and unjustifiable stigma that red is difficult to work in post, which is uther nonnsense. It has nothing to do with picture quality.

Nowadays all Red sensors are class leading, and reliability is up there with everybody else. It just takes time for the current gen DSMC2
cameras and their quality to do the talking.

Never had a colleague or friend in the field who owns and makes a living with a Red complaining about its quality.

We writting here the camera’s virtues will not help much. Our images and work with them are and will always be the biggest embassador of Red’s quality.

Suffice to say very happy Monstro owner and user. Previous Helium, Dragon and MX owner/ user and every single
camera was an absolute star performer.

 

[Jason beaumont]

Ive been encountering a lot of RED hate in my market. Its not that they don't like the RED , but they associate it with "Low end" budgets. If you want a High end look, you have to use an ARRI. Of course I explain to people that this is absurd, they use RED for major motion pictures, tv shows ect, but ive still literally had people tell me that if you want to be in the big leagues you have to shoot with an ALEXA. Kind of frustrating.

The other thing is they try and compare their work with RED compared to their work with ARRI. But because they are using the ARRI on bigger budget productions, naturally the videos have better lights, crew, locations, equipment. So its like comparing apples to oranges, but ya know they just think im biased because im a red owner.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

You can remind them that many Oscar nominated and winning DOPs have and are shooting on Red. Schwartzman,Matty, Burgess, etc

 

[David J. Buchanan]

It's crazy that we're still having this conversation.

Movies are being shot on phones for crying out loud. Anyone who's truly hating on RED is just a hater, and that's fine.

I take jabs at RED in hopes that they will improve the tech, but I'm no hater (or fanboy). Any of the top three camera brands will get you a good image, those who don't understand that probably aren't in the game they need to be in.

 

[AndreasOberg]

For wildlife I find it very hard to consider anything else than Red, at least if you are filming animals far away. The ability to crop in 200% and still get a 4k output basically makes your 1500mm lens into a 3000mm lens which is VERY useful.
Also the flexibility with slow motion makes a huge difference.

Andreas

 

[Phil Holland]

budgets

.

It's extremely hard to keep track of where the word of mouth fashion lands on budgets, but perhaps my biggest issue with much of the misinformation or disinformation is that:

- RED is too expensive to work with
- RED is low budget oriented
- RED is difficult to work with

If this has hit you, feel free to utilize my framesToDataRate app on PHFX | Tools or heck simply point the production in my direction to discuss workflow.

I've helped on a great deal of productions when it comes to general workflow, more than I've worked on by at least by 10 fold over the last few years. Most of what I've encountered is a lack of experience or knowledge of the ecosystem, which truly isn't that different from anything else there on the post side.

It's nearly like the job of a Post Production Supervisor has vanished in recent years. Hmm.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

I have had to use Phil's data rate site to prove to Paramount post that Monster at 5:1 Compression and 8K uses slightly less data than Alexa 3.4K Codex.

The vestigial backlash against RED is amusing and yet annoying.....

At this point in my career I find it bothersome......

 

[joshua csehak]

There's one big reason why most big budget movies are shot on Arri and not Red – no one ever got fired for picking Arri. Not kidding, this is a direct quote from an ASC member, IIRC.

You really have to have your head in the sand to ignore how Panavision's completely legitimized Red with the DXL.

And I love it when people want a C300 b/c Red footage is too hard for post, when C300 at 4K is the same size as Red at 5K (at about 9:1, IIRC).

I've had my Epic-X 4 years now. I've taken her out into Boston's coldest winter, on an outboard motor boat circling a schooner in the ocean, and God knows how many talking heads. I've gotten a total of 2 corrupted files ever (both when overcranking), and the phantom power preamps are kaput, but she's paid for herself and then some, is still going strong, and Red just keeps making my footage look better and better for free. It's far and away the most money I've ever spent on anything, and also the best investment I've ever made.

 

[David Peterson]

Also, just to the point of independent film production and in particular to that graphic, bare in mind you can get an Alexa for the low end of $$,$$$ purchased used these days and rentals are on the less expansive side of things, I've seen Mini rentals going below 1/2 market rate at this point, which is fine as many productions get decent deals on gear especially for longer shoots. Same likely for all the cameras used on a variety of these festival productions. No biggie.

Don't think pointing out how "cheap" ARRI is, is a good argument as to why ARRI is so dominant in the ranks and why RED is missing the same level of representation.

As has ever anyone ever picked ARRI over RED as the "cheaper option"? I doubt it, highly unlikely.

 

[David Peterson]

There's one big reason why most big budget movies are shot on Arri and not Red – no one ever got fired for picking Arri. Not kidding, this is a direct quote from an ASC member, IIRC.

It is a spin on the classic "Nobody got fired for using IBM" quote.

http://wiki.c2.com/?NobodyEverGotFiredForBuyingMicrosoft

https://www.quora.com/What-does-the-phrase-Nobody-ever-got-fired-for-choosing-IBM-mean


To be fair, a lot of what was applicable (in the good and the bad) to IBM then, could be applied to ARRI today as well.

If we are to closely examine where this comes from, above the simplistic idea of “they are a mammoth who can pay for it if it all goes belly up” it’s a fascinating lesson in branding as IBM was known for only taking on a project if they firmly believed they could deliver what was expected of them, and that they would stay on to see it through, no matter the consequences and above the monetary motivation.


In other words, they were supremely dedicated to providing quality service to their clients. Leaving aside the consideration of why that should ever be anything but the norm in business in general, if we speak to IBMers that have been around “in the olden days”, they will confirm the conscientious stance was not PR but a strongly held internal belief of only engaging when they believed they could over-deliver. They -along with most everyone else in technology- would also admit that is no longer the case.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/duenab...-for-buying-ibm-but-they-should/#19d22c2f48fc

Consider partnering with a larger company that can lend their credibility while you’re still building yours. You’ll enjoy sales opportunities you’d never have otherwise, and your lack of a track record will be less of an issue. Just be sure to choose the right partner – one who shares your values and your vision for what you can accomplish together.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/homayc...y-ever-got-fired-for-buying-ibm/#4ad235c016b6

This is why it is good RED partnered with Panavision.

RED should do more of this, partner with Timecode Systems Ltd to have TCS supply the timecode crystals and tech for inside the next generation of RED cameras.

Partner with Sound Devices, Aaton, or Sonosax etc to have the pre amps in the next generation of RED cameras.

 

[Aaron Lochert]

This is why it is good RED partnered with Panavision.

RED should do more of this, partner with Timecode Systems Ltd to have TCS supply the timecode crystals and tech for inside the next generation of RED cameras.

Partner with Sound Devices, Aaton, or Sonosax etc to have the pre amps in the next generation of RED cameras.

The license agreement with Atomos and the cooperation with Nvidia also show that RED is working hard to further cement the brand in the professional world. I wouldn't be surprised to see more partnerships coming.