Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Defending RED, Camera (Brand) Wars, Shot On What?!

Phil Holland

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
13,392
Reaction score
796
Points
113
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.phfx.com
Defending RED is not something I've needed to do as of late, not for a long time really.

However.

That recent Sundance Shot On graphic from NoFilmSchool certainly has produced a lot of odd conversation on social media. Rather than have conversations with a great deal of people, conversations I've had already numerous times, I thought I'd just express a few things for everybody to look at under a bright light. I'm not into click bait articles, FUD, or misinformation. So take this all as a fairly in the frame perspective on this subject from somebody who sees where cameras are used industry-wide.

First, keep in mind that RED cameras are used by every major studio, a great deal of broadcast content, every streaming service, commercials, in submersibles, Panavision, nearly every rental house (even Arri Rental, hell I've rented from them), NASA, SpaceX, the Military, etc.... A whole lot of camera bodies out there filming all sorts of stuff at every budget level and for pretty much every type of outlet. The industry is massively dynamic, but RED has been broadly accepted industry-wide for some time now while pushing the industry forward in a few ways.

Also, just to the point of independent film production and in particular to that graphic, bare in mind you can get an Alexa for the low end of $$,$$$ purchased used these days and rentals are on the less expansive side of things, I've seen Mini rentals going below 1/2 market rate at this point, which is fine as many productions get decent deals on gear especially for longer shoots. Same likely for all the cameras used on a variety of these festival productions. No biggie.

I've read a great deal of the comments and some of it is so nuts to me. I enjoy the jabs here and there and the knocks on reliability, but keep a solid head on your shoulders, RED cameras are in space and it takes a great deal to even get to that point for how they are being used way up there. Back on Earth, I've used them in piss freezing cold and torturous hot temperatures, and staked my livelihood on them performing in those conditions. I'm certain you've seen some of the Collective pieces and you can see that these cameras are being used well outside of the safe confines of an air conditioned sound stage.

I personally don't care what people choose to work with (a lesson oddly taught to me by Deakins long ago), but I know deeply why I choose the tools I use for my creative efforts, my client's needs, and to create compelling high quality imagery with because I test literally everything that comes to market. Most of you who know me know I'm constantly looking at cameras, lenses, lights, filters, support, and a whole bunch of other things surrounding day to day motion picture production. As should you. That effort pays off in knowing the strengths and limits of the tools, which will influence what you use, why, and when you use it. Also, I'm never feel behind the curve staying that up to date on motion picture technology and in these fast moving times I find that rather important.

With that said, use the gear that you enjoy working with that fits the needs for you and the projects you film for whatever the intentions are for delivery. Considering the rather discerning and deliberate filmmakers who choose to work with RED cameras and why they have chosen the cameras, I'm always surprised by internet responses surrounding what is shot on what, when, or where.

Many people replying to these shares via social media in particular haven't touched a RED camera and/or haven't touched one in a really long time, which shows. Also, some of the previously spread information or misinformation has been truly harmful particularly to those who don't test out their gear, but do go by what is said. Some of that has been cleared up, even by the sources of such weirdness, but in a narrow canyon filled with a loud voice an echo travels a great distance and can be heard over and over again even before another word is spoken or heard at a later time. Redaction rarely has the impact of the initial response. Indeed in the earliest days a great deal of hurdles had to be climbed for RED as a whole, but considering where the cameras are as of DSMC and DSMC2 so much of this conversation is just silly now.

To that point, I hope you as a filmmaker take the time and evaluate newer cameras in every manufacturer's line-up. Find what fits, find what works. But do note, every manufacturer is making 4K or 4K+ cameras at this point and that's been in the face of the anti-RED audience and influencers, some of whom bashed 4K not long ago, yet are working in 4K today. I don't have a short memory on that particular subject and I do find that to be the funniest part of much of this. And yes, it's not all about resolution. Color, Total Capture Dynamic Range, Noise Character, general features such as frame rate, format size, reliability, size, etc. all play a role which is honestly what has led RED to where they are today with their various offerings.

Brand-ism is certainly alive and well from all perspectives, but it's strange to not look at the industry as a whole. Even stranger when the concept of a filmmaking communities becomes much more divisive in nature. It's crazy to see where some of this online chatter descends down into and there's a massive reason you don't see professionals get caught up in this sort of tornado.

I do have a perspective on RED, the brand, the company, and their mentality towards camera development and innovation. It's a rather different ecosystem than other manufacturers, even outside of the upgrade paths, which most find beneficial at some point. RED has an alarmingly active R&D department looking for what is next. For me RED as a company is very active and progressive rather than reactive to a developed trend or cycle. Which is why they hit things like 8K early on. I note this as we soon will be greeted with the future camera offerings from other manufacturers who are going to scratch the 8K paint. Also keep in mind every camera made by RED to date actually hasn't really been outdated in the UHD era, just more features and technology advancements as well as additional formats have been introduced. Most of that equates to improved image quality or an easier time on modern sets. People are still working with MX out there folks. The newer sensors and cameras are indeed better however, and that's the R&D paying off in my opinion.

Feel free to share or copy pasta. I don't mind voicing a bit of actualities into the chatter boxes. No venting, just well, some perspective.

Frame grab, because it's important to grab onto what's most important.

phfx_ohBoy.jpg


Have a good evening.
 
Phil, with all your efforts towards Red, I'm surprised you still haven't been hired by Red, you seem way more convinced than most of their employees ;-)
 
There's a similar list at this link:

The Cameras and Lenses Behind 2018’s Oscar-Nominated Films
https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/cameras-2018-oscar-nominated-films/

I think all of the Oscar-nominated films (Best Picture and Best Cinematography) were shot on either some form of Alexa or film. What surprised me is that none were shot on Panavision DXL, because that's a helluva camera. I think this will change next year, and there will be some major features that go with the DXL.

If this were TV, there's a ton of shows shooting on Red and the vast majority of them look fantastic. But I also see terrific pictures on Sony and Panasonic Varicam, even a handful of Blackmagic Ursa Minis and Canons here and there.
 
Phil, there's no need to defend RED, I think most professional people know it's a great camera.
If you are watching facebook or other sites you can only eat displeasure, and anger, in seeing so much ignorance. This is true sadness.
Anyway, it's time to focus on the new DMSC3 camera body;)
 
The reality of a test is reality

The reality of a test is reality

So here's the straight simple TRUTH I have been shooting the same Red body for 5 years, things flogged, the internal clock battery died the homemade batteries I built for her are all slowly dying, the motion mount does wird shit on -20 days but other than that the thing is a fricken printing press for $$$$ I just released a book that was mostly frame grabs from the last project I released (That project paid off the camera and a bunch of accessories I did not really need but see as a tech tax) it has hammered out a bunch of other things and just keeps whirring to life it has had snow in it, been in the humidity of Papua, been tossed from boats to jetskis had lenses forced onto mounts when I forgot to back off the locking ring and as I speak is in a back pack in a car freezing. IT STILL KEEPS DELIVERING the footage I shot day one is as good as the footage I shoot today. This camera system was a revalation from the outset and it is the bar that everything else is judged by … sure my little go pro can give it a run in low light but other than that it's fricken magic in a box. … that's 4K can't even imagine what 8K is doin. Talk less shit, shoot more gold, listen to Phil the guy is obsessed with quality and when somebody can prove they have a better camera buy it.
 
So here's the straight simple TRUTH I have been shooting the same Red body for 5 years, things flogged, the internal clock battery died the homemade batteries I built for her are all slowly dying, the motion mount does wird shit on -20 days but other than that the thing is a fricken printing press for $$$$ I just released a book that was mostly frame grabs from the last project I released (That project paid off the camera and a bunch of accessories I did not really need but see as a tech tax) it has hammered out a bunch of other things and just keeps whirring to life it has had snow in it, been in the humidity of Papua, been tossed from boats to jetskis had lenses forced onto mounts when I forgot to back off the locking ring and as I speak is in a back pack in a car freezing. IT STILL KEEPS DELIVERING the footage I shot day one is as good as the footage I shoot today. This camera system was a revalation from the outset and it is the bar that everything else is judged by … sure my little go pro can give it a run in low light but other than that it's fricken magic in a box. … that's 4K can't even imagine what 8K is doin. Talk less shit, shoot more gold, listen to Phil the guy is obsessed with quality and when somebody can prove they have a better camera buy it.

Damn, that should be copy in a magazine ad.
 
We spent 1.5 years 100% of our income to fund our first Epic and naturaly everyone thought we were crazy. Now we have made the money many times over and developed so much as cinematographers. And just had so much fun!

Every time I get curious about another camera system, I compare a few screen grabs and I instantly go back to Red (not exaggerating!). Our Helium is just such a big step up. There is a bit of noise but it is rarely a problem. It is also wonderful that you can get so nice stills out of the camera. Looking forward to testing monstro more as well.

For the future with Red I hope we see dual iso at 8k implemented and more slow motion, but it is pretty darn close to a "perfect" camera. I think the ultra bright screen just moved it one step closer to perfection.

Always looking forward, never looking back after going with Red.
Andreas
 
Phil, with all your efforts towards Red, I'm surprised you still haven't been hired by Red, you seem way more convinced than most of their employees ;-)

Phil is open and most people like that, RED is seen as a closed cult in the industry. When RED wants to become more commercially succesfull they have to change their attitude (the camera's are good). I'm not saying that RED's attitude is wrong, it's just not helping them commercially.
 
Phil, there's no need to defend RED, I think most professional people know it's a great camera.
If you are watching facebook or other sites you can only eat displeasure, and anger, in seeing so much ignorance. This is true sadness.
Anyway, it's time to focus on the new DMSC3 camera body;)

It's still getting a better system. Dont do DSMC3 any time soon. We just got the Teradek DSMC2 module and it works so goooood. The Teradek integration is great for EF and PL Lenses. Doing a new body means buying everything new for our cams...and wont work in the beginning as before. DSMC1 to DSMC2 was hurting very much for our workflow on set, when not everything we needed was available or just didnt make the switch to the new system (Red THC EF lens control).


Regards.
 
Just a thought. Imagine if we could have the same form format in DSMC2 but instead upgrade some of the tech. I just want better slow motion. Being able to see focus better would also be a big thing (zooming in 200% or outputting a 4k image)
 
Well said Phil!
We don’t have to defend our RED cameras!

There’s always a gimmick/fad that people run to. You choose the camera that works best for your needs and the project-just like lenses. And yet lenses don’t get the amount of hate out there online like some digital cinema cameras get.
I’ve been shooting RED for years and love everything about it: r3d workflow, DR, ergonomics, color science, etc. Sure Arri has a more aesthetically pleasing color science, but RED is more accurate and DR is just as good if not better! Sure I primarily use my Helium, yes there’s a bit of a green shift to the image-it’s nothing that can’t be easily fixed even in camera with a LUT like what Omeneo offers if your really in a time crunch!

Since IPP2 that improved my RED 1 footage from over 10 years ago! Not to mention it’s still 4K! Can’t think of any camera which could or has futureproofed/improved the image for that long if ever!

And like Manfred said, we don’t need DSMC3 anytime soon. Especially with this unified system we have now, and accessories/modules which could be configured to any shooting style/need. Definitely hope that future generations all the modules would be completely backwards compatible though!
 
Nicely written there Phil.

From my perspective, RED pushes the industry forward, at a very fast rate, and most camera manufacturers decide whether to play catch up, or that resolution isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Other companies value other things more - DR, image aesthetic, noise floor, color reproduction, etc. I applaud RED, but at the same time, have been incredibly frustrated with how many cameras they've updated/released recently, as it's devaluing the brand as a whole. Slashing prices and announcing new cams/unified bodied versions so frequently, it's making their current line of customers - all of us here - feel like we're grasping at straws. It's gone from the simple - Epic/Scarlet, to an insane amount of options now, which only confuses us as well as our "end clients," thus making our job more difficult - trying to explain which specific body we have and what resolutions, frame rates, etc., it's capable of. I know they are trying to simplify again, with the unified DSMC2 body, but it's still overly complex with too many cameras in the food chain. I know cameras evolve through the years, and new ones come out, but typically in the higher end cinema arena, it shouldn't be as often as it has been with RED.

I think it's also a difficult market for RED. While leading/pushing the industry, at the same time, they have also been trying to play catch-up to Arri. Everyone goes go-go-ga-ga over the Alexa skin tones and dynamic range, which is one of the many reasons why it's one of the most requested cameras for any production. On a wide-range of those productions, a good chunk of them are still acquiring in 2K pro res, which just goes to show that, yea - resolution is great, but most people prefer the overall image look more.

I think RED's best camera to date has been Dragon (never shot on Monstro - so maybe that one's better). It had the most natural skin-tone reproduction (even better with IPP2), good highlight rolloff, and it was incredibly stable. I think RED got lost along with way, and focused on resolution (because frankly, that's what RED has been known for) as opposed to building something that made the overall image, look more like film. With the onslaught of ultra high resolution capture and most content being viewed online/social media and on your smartphone, brands and agencies are looking at how they can "degrade" the image, because that's what gives it character and sets their brand a part. We want organic, texture, noise, etc. It feels more authentic and real. As opposed to the overly digital/sharp look, which to me, looks much more like video than film.

To me, RED seems to be doing quite a bit of back-peddling, realizing that resolution isn't everything, and most people are fine with 4K/5K acquisition. If RED created a mini monstro (I know a lot of people call the gemini a mini monstro - but it's not - at least in my opinion), with a 4K maybe 5K full frame sized sensor, and really focused on DR, skin tones, and a non-uniform noise pattern - I think they'd have a real winner.

RED will always be a leader, but I think if RED refocuses their priorities - less on resolution, and more on image texture - they'll find themselves at the top, and once again, in high demand.
 
The past few years have seen a mind boggling amount of new sensors from Red and I think that's hurting their choice with Cinematographers. I personally think RED needs to work on one sensor for a while and really focus on color fidelity and dynamic range, now that everything is 4K and up.

Arri cameras will dominate because the color and highlights look the best, obviously that's subjective, but the camera choices for big films don't lie. For them to still dominate with a sensor almost a decade old by just increasing it's physical size should say something.

Everyone is going to have their own opinion on this, but I think Red needs to thin out the camera line to just "Monstro" or something, with one choice in OLPF and just focus on how to get the best colors out of it.

It'd be interesting to see someone put up the amount of image options there are with Bodies / Sensors / OLPF , each one looks drastically different. I've been shooting on Red since the Epic-M and maybe I'm just finding myself in the wrong camp in the past year, but I'm totally overwhelmed with the SKUs.
 
"What camera did you use to shoot this!?!"

"What lights did you use?!?!!?"

"What mics did you use to record this!?!!??"

"What renderer did you use!?!"

"What editing software did you use!??!?!"

"What DAW do you use to make music!?!?!?!"

"What pencil do you use your drawings are amazing!??!!"

"What brushes do you use your paintings are amazing!?!?!"


Stop.
 
Another thing worth mentioning. Just because a film made it into a festival, or even into production, doesn't mean it is any good.
 
Back
Top