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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

December 1st Dragon Sensor upgrade price increase reminder

egon touste said:
can someone please explain to me why we're being asked to pay 30% more ?

have production costs increased, or another reason?
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My guess is that there will be another price drop, the additional 30% is not the cost of an upgrade but an entirely new camera, meaning RED is not doing any more upgrades except for Epic Dragon. If you want a new camera you pay the new lower price. Just a guess.
 
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Terry VerHaar said:
I have no knowledge of RED's strategy but it's alway fun to think out loud and see if you turn out to be right.

I think that, as of the 12/1 date when upgrade prices go up, Scarlet-X will cease production. Meanwhile, Epic-X prices will drop to $14,500 to match Scarlet Dragon. Those will be the "entry level" RED cameras going forward.

Since we know you will still be able to trade in your old Scarlet-X for an Epic-X for $9500, RED will offer the traded in Scarlets as "battle tested" units going forward, until supply runs out. Those will be priced somewhere around $4-5K - with no upgrade capability. At the same time, RED will begin to produce the Epic-X Dragons for, I believe the price was projected, around $24,500.

So... for new cameras, you'll have Scarlet Dragon and Epic-X at the low end and Epic Dragon, Xs and Ms, at the top. Did I leave anything out? :smiley:
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This looks like sound reasoning - I suppose we'll find out soon!

RED could also keep Scarlet X's in production. Avail brand new at $4k (ie 4K for 4K). They would be a SUPERB intro into the RED ecosystem. Could be very tempting to the DSLR crowd - and give many something to think about (imagine instead of an A7...you could pay a bit more for a Scarlet MX?)

I could see battle tested Scarlets for the same price - $4K, but with SSD and EOS mount included (but perhaps only 90 day warranty, etc).
 
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Except that Scarlet-Xs won't be coming back with side SSD and mount. Those will be switched to the new camera in the trade.
 
Noel R. said:
My guess is that there will be another price drop, the additional 30% is not the cost of an upgrade but an entirely new camera, meaning RED is not doing any more upgrades except for Epic Dragon. If you want a new camera you pay the new lower price. Just a guess.
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well, regardless of what a new dragon "brain module" costs.. $9000 is way over the top for a sensor upgrade and a board swap IMHO ..but good old reduser , as usual, just takes it like a man.. with too much money..

speculation on my part, but if Aja can give me a half decent image @ 4k raw @ 120fps, and can output fullframe at 1080/ 2k.. with 11stops or more of DR.. ill take that instead ..just for the global shutter and the freedom that would give me.. and it looks like it will now cost less.. i think ill wait and see..

i do appreciate that the research and development of redcode must have cost quite a bit, as red have stated before .. modifying it etc.. and licensing it (ie, jpeg2000 ..redcode is now supported in DCRAW btw.. standard JASPER library cn open it, although red are storing green pixel data and what looks like chromiance data) ..

i also noticed the latest low powered jpeg2000 chips can handle 8k at very high framerates.. and raw encoding is part of the jpeg2000 spec of course..so hopefully another company will start using them soon, they aint too pricey i hear.. chips such as these: http://www.intopix.com/products/index/index/id/34/lang/en#.VGbQfsmOpLc

i deal with a few smaller rental companies, and none have taken up dragon upgrades because of price
i personally declined the red one mx upgrade at $5k also.. but picked up a battletested for $4k later on ..

before you jump on me.. this is genuine customer feedback.. in response to a massive unexplained price hike!!
 
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I don't know Egon. I think it was a steal. Dragon is that much better IMO. For Scarlet I agree with you. Better off buying a new brain even before the upgrade price increase.
 
Dragon is such an amazing camera, it really is worth it as long as you can pay it off
 
Anyone complaining about the Dragon has little experience with it in my opinion. The new lowlight OLPF is the sweet sauce!
 
Adam Johnson said:
Anyone complaining about the Dragon has little experience with it in my opinion. The new lowlight OLPF is the sweet sauce!
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no one has complained about the dragon sensor.. please point those comments out ?

..but a 30% price jump !! ..is worth complaining about..

..you obviously don't think so.. so bravo to you sir for being patronizing,missing the point, and not caring all in one go.. no offence..

anybody who takes a 30% price hike laying down has little experience dealing in the real world with real people who work hard for their money.. in my opinion

ive had 6 calls over the last week from people id describe as owner/supporters of red who are not happy.. but hey ho..
 
egon touste said:
no one has complained about the dragon sensor.. please point those comments out ?

..but a 30% price jump !! ..is worth complaining about..

..you obviously don't think so.. so bravo to you sir for being patronizing,missing the point, and not caring all in one go.. no offence..

anybody who takes a 30% price hike laying down has little experience dealing in the real world with real people who work hard for their money.. in my opinion

ive had 6 calls over the last week from people id describe as owner/supporters of red who are not happy.. but hey ho..
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While a price increase is certainly not wonderful news from a potential buyer's perspective, Red informed people well over a year ago this was going to happen.

In a similar fashion to those upgrading from the Red One to Epic for instance. Red works on the early adopter concept and it pays to know that and it is what history has shown us with this company.

If you search back you'll find similar conversations from the past. But again this isn't really being sprung on anybody in reality. Though at this point you're rather close to the deadline.
 
I think this or something like this is very likely...in my guess they stop selling new MXs entirely...off all the BT MXs for cheap.. and become Dragon sensor only based... I mean when they went M to MX didn't M sales cease? I am sure similarly Red would be more satisfied with the later sensor again, maybe and in an effort to reduce costs for legacy MX at least consider a phase out? Granted we both could be wrong on the date, maybe this price change has nothing to do with MX at this time? But surely one day all those BT units will be sold and MX will make less manufacturing sense if Dragon is ultimately a better system..


Terry VerHaar said:
I have no knowledge of RED's strategy but it's alway fun to think out loud and see if you turn out to be right.

I think that, as of the 12/1 date when upgrade prices go up, Scarlet-X will cease production. Meanwhile, Epic-X prices will drop to $14,500 to match Scarlet Dragon. Those will be the "entry level" RED cameras going forward.

Since we know you will still be able to trade in your old Scarlet-X for an Epic-X for $9500, RED will offer the traded in Scarlets as "battle tested" units going forward, until supply runs out. Those will be priced somewhere around $4-5K - with no upgrade capability. At the same time, RED will begin to produce the Epic-X Dragons for, I believe the price was projected, around $24,500.

So... for new cameras, you'll have Scarlet Dragon and Epic-X at the low end and Epic Dragon, Xs and Ms, at the top. Did I leave anything out? :smiley:
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Phil Holland said:
While a price increase is certainly not wonderful news from a potential buyer's perspective, Red informed people well over a year ago this was going to happen.

In a similar fashion to those upgrading from the Red One to Epic for instance. Red works on the early adopter concept and it pays to know that and it is what history has shown us with this company.

If you search back you'll find similar conversations from the past. But again this isn't really being sprung on anybody in reality. Though at this point you're rather close to the deadline.
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Phil, Red one to epic happened in different days where not every camera manufacturer had a 4k camera. Red one to epic was also a huge jump and therefore an easy decision to make. The dragon sensor is over a year late and yet the price increase date has stayed the same. It's not the price increase that's been sprung on anyone but rather the time to make an informed decision on a proven product.
 
I have to agree with Shane, the price increase has come far to soon, the dragon upgrade came much later than expected, therefore the price increase one would assume would come later
 
I am having a hard time understanding why there are so many people here that are whining about the price increase.

I started the DSMC system with a Scarlet in April 2012 I used that camera for over a year, rented it out to only myself and it paid for itself 5 times over (at least) in that year. June 2013 I paid an additional $9,500, upgraded to Epic, have used it, increased my production value, produced a better reel and made a LOT of money in the process with this camera. I paid for my Dragon upgrade a few weeks ago and when I have enough downtime to send in my camera I will.

I see the camera as a tool that makes me money. I am getting in before I have to pay more money for the same tool. Consider it an early adopter discount by RED. We are getting so much more of a camera that the MX and if you're doing it right, it should make you even more money. I don't understand where the frustration is coming from. If I would have bought another brand, I would have had to buy a new camera every step of the way...
 
Everyone is entitled to, and has (lol) their own opinion, but what makes the pricing "unfair"?
 
DC Chavez said:
I am having a hard time understanding why there are so many people here that are whining about the price increase.

I started the DSMC system with a Scarlet in April 2012 I used that camera for over a year, rented it out to only myself and it paid for itself 5 times over (at least) in that year. June 2013 I paid an additional $9,500, upgraded to Epic, have used it, increased my production value, produced a better reel and made a LOT of money in the process with this camera. I paid for my Dragon upgrade a few weeks ago and when I have enough downtime to send in my camera I will.

I see the camera as a tool that makes me money. I am getting in before I have to pay more money for the same tool. Consider it an early adopter discount by RED. We are getting so much more of a camera that the MX and if you're doing it right, it should make you even more money. I don't understand where the frustration is coming from. If I would have bought another brand, I would have had to buy a new camera every step of the way...
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I agree. Being able to go from SCARLET MX - EPIX MX - DRAGON EPIC is a remarkable pathway not currently available with other brands/systems.

The price increase isn't great, but it's a reminder that RED was essentially giving everyone a "discount" for quite some time. DRAGON is essentially a new camera.
 
RikiButland said:
I am not whining DC Chavez just do not agree, and I am entitled to my own opinion, I feel the price increase is unfair, you obviously do not, good for you
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Unfair? There is nothing unfair about it at all. It might not be great and wonderful, and you can feel bad about passing a chance to save money and what not. All fine, all understandable.

BUT

RED is probably handling this price-increase the fairest way a company has ever handled those things.
 
I don't think anyone "likes" spending extra money ....but look at it this way....RED does two things right....1, they offer this service....2, they tell you about the increase in advance.

I dont like like spending extra money...but good on them for informing me and giving us options.
 
Dragon had too many issues just a few months ago. Once I got comfy with the idea of swapping olpfs I bought in with dragon. There is still a couple worrying matters like the cmos smearing but enough issues were addressed for me to click Add To Cart.

I think the problem people have is that the notification of price increase came so close to the point the camera became a SOLID product.

To say we had over a years notice is not really accurate if you consider when the camera really grew out of a difficult puberty.
 
I tend to agree with everyone here to an extent. The upgrade price was pretty high to begin with. With the increase I seriously think it's probably a better move to simply sell your camera and buy a new brain. (Provided Epix Dragon X becomes available soon.)

But, Dragon kicks so much arse it's certainly worth it IMO.

I too went the Scarlet, Epic, Dragon route. All I can say is that I feel a lot of gratitude toward RED. I bought a new Scarlet and used the hell out of it. When I bought it I was seriously considering the C300. The lack of interchangable lens mounts was what tipped me in favor of the Scarlet. Had I bought a C300 back then my camera investment would have depreciated a lot more than my comperable RED investment thanks in large part to the upgrade program. For $9.5k I was able to uprage to a brand new Epic! What a steal of a deal IMO. The Dragon upgrade gave me the latest state-of-the-art camera.

Thanks RED for that!

I think that the increase in price may be an indication of a future price drop for MX cameras which I think is justified considering just how awesome Dragon is compared to MX.

I feel bad for everyone who can't swing the upgrade before the price increase because it is steep. It would rock if RED allowed you to place a non refundable deposit to hold the old upgrade price for a few months. I agree that because Dragon was late that it feels too soon for the increase. But the camera landscape changes so fast these days.

Perhaps financing the upgrade now would be the best option for some before the price increase. I don't know. I can see both sides here. But bottom line is I think RED rocks for offering the upgrades in the first place. I feel bad for all of the early F3 owners for example. At least it gives you more options. Also it's probably one of the main reasons that RED gear holds its value so well compared to other brands.
 
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