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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

December 1st Dragon Sensor upgrade price increase reminder

Mike P. said:
But being that Damien feels it's still in-development/work-in-progress, there was basically no time to make an objective or informed decision based on the latest (hopefully final) shipping spec. For example, the swappable OLPFs started shipping when? In the last few weeks? Even if that is to be the last piece of the dragon development puzzle, it only leaves about four weeks from "final" Dragon spec/design to price-increase-day.... Not exactly a generous amount of time given the cost and complexity of thoroughly testing such a device.

End of the day, as Casey says, for better or worse it's forcing would-be upgrades to poop or get off the pot.
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I have to agree with you here. The dragon has really only being finalized in the last few weeks, that's not really a surprise to me but the price increase will probably force me to "get off the pot" as you put it. I can't see recouping that investment with the development times of today's cameras.
 
Brent@RED said:
Malik, if you are going from SCARLET M-X to EPIC M-X, that price stays the same. As Jarred stated a few posts back, if you are going from a camera (EPIC or SCARLET) with an M-X sensor to one with a DRAGON sensor, the price increase is in effect. So, EPIC M-X to EPIC DRAGON, check. SCARLET M-X to SCARLET DRAGON, check. SCARLET M-X to EPIC DRAGON, check.
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Thanks for clarifying Brent.
 
Mike P. said:
But being that Damien feels it's still in-development/work-in-progress, there was basically no time to make an objective or informed decision based on the latest (hopefully final) shipping spec.
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Hmmm, to me that sounds actually like a bad way to look at the ever on-going development and polishment. Most of that stuff happens for free, hardware does cost something. It's one of the great things, RED doesn't stop improving current hardware as long as it makes sense. Competition would have tried to sell you a new brain every two years, maybe every year.

So, why "hopefully final"? It's just getting better and better.
 
That's amazingly great when it's obvious/objective *improvements* (bumps in resolution, higher frame rates, added WS or ANA modes, etc), which is likely what future developments will be from this point onward (now that the hardware is seemingly nailed down). However, up until now RED have been *fixing* issues/problems, which, if they didn't do (for free) would have caused people to go elsewhere in a hurry. It's the nature of the beast, really... Double edged sword, so to speak.

Also, if you live outside the US, shipping back and forth to RED for "free" fixes actually costs hundreds of dollars to rectify problems that, obviously, nobody wanted in the first place (not to mention the cost of forced down time). So while it's great that RED stand behind their products, and will fix these kinds of developmental growing pains for free, there are still associated costs that you end up having to pay to resolve them. Which understandably causes people to want to wait as long as possible before upgrading (at the very least to get everything ironed out on the hardware side). In that respect, the price hike comes across as a deterrent (coercion? persuasion?) and in slightly bad taste... It kind of taints what is otherwise an amazing program.
 
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Meanwhile, "Gods and Kings" will come out shortly. Looks like someone felt it was safe to invest a few hundred million into a camera that's still "in development". My camera is there right now, getting some Dragon love. The day RED has it all nailed down and perfect will be the day they are no longer RED.

You can find flaws, or you can work with what you have. You have to make the best choice for yourself I suppose.

RED is the bleeding edge. They push, and like they said in "Side by Side" only RED has a direct communication line that goes from Today's film makers right to their engineers.

I love RED. And they love me. I'm never leaving.

Jay
 
Yeah, and I mean, 99.9% of viewers/clients won't notice seemingly minor deficiencies like magenta orbs around highlights, or nosier shadows than MX when shooting above 500ISO (especially after a $10s of millions worth of post work)... That said, and speaking of working with what you have rather than looking at the flaws, 99.9% of viewers/clients wouldn't noticed the difference between MX and Dragon either... Hell, they probably couldn't tell the difference between a GH4 and Dragon for that matter...

And that's kind of why I understand what Damien is saying; it's tough enough jumping in for $9500... Trying to get people to do it via a price hike while the camera is still getting new/updated/reworked hardware, will likely dissuade more users than it will encourage them (particularly Scarlet users -- post-Dec.1st, no one is gonna pay $12500, when the brain new is $14,500).
 
I just finished a shoot where I was using my Dragon and also an MX. Half the shoot was indoors, and the other half was outdoors. Indoor stuff, granted you can match them really close. But outdoors, the MX footage's skys were so easy to blow out. And then having to keep an eye on those Magenta clipped highlights. I'm getting spoiled with Dragon DR!
 
Mike P. said:
However, up until now RED have been *fixing* issues/problems, which, if they didn't do (for free) would have caused people to go elsewhere in a hurry. It's the nature of the beast, really... Double edged sword, so to speak.
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I agree, if the cameras were judged solely on the release specs/issues, lets face it, I know a lot of people who would be running for the hills.

There are 2 types of free upgrades - one is to fix the problems... then there are a second type of free upgrade that expand functionality. This second type is to make us all feel better for hanging in for the bumpy ride.

I think Red knows the upgrade to specs during the life cycle of the camera are a core part of their business.

At some point RED stop offering upgrades free and put them in a new box with a new name and charge for it. Rinse and repeat.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
Why everyone so furious about upgrades? Nobody is forcing you to upgrade,and you dont have to do it
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no one is "furious", we are merely stating that 12.5k is quite a lot of money for an upgrade that is, from what I have seen, not a major one. IMO the price should be dropping two years after the sensor was announced, not rising $3000.
 
I pay to play. As I write this my team is flying home from filming in the remote mountains of Oaxaca (La ventosa, MX) one of the windiest places in the world. Wed we start a 5 star resort commercial. Both shot with the same dragon body. The camera is a beast, it takes time to get to know her positive and negative attributes, but every camera has them. The dragon has changed the game again. We don't work on multi-million dollar jobs, but I'd happily pay $12.5k for the upgrade with what we are seeing come out of this camera. Just my two cents as I sit in a very dusty, windy hot location.
 
Dunkan Wolf said:
But it's obvious they don't want you to hold on to your money and wait for NAB.
After so much hype of Dragon being 2, no 3 times better than MX i'm disappointed... MX does everything i want. Perhaps if Dragon had double the framerates or 8k i'd consider spending 9500$ on it. 12500$? Hell no.
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im disappointed Dragon doesnt have 1000FPS, 10K rez, Imax size sensor and 20stop DR for 9500$.
 
Sarcasm**
 
I guess all this "disappointment" just goes to show how used to things people can get. A few years ago an "upgrade" to a camera was pretty much unheard of. RED has created a monster with its largess.

On another note, most people seem to think an increase in the upgrade price is indicative of a possible increase in the price of the Dragon. A different possibility is that it may signal a $3K decrease in the price of the Epic MX; thus justifying the new delta between the two. Just a thought.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I guess all this "disappointment" just goes to show how used to things people can get. A few years ago an "upgrade" to a camera was pretty much unheard of...
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Agreed.

Now it would be nice of Sony to let us dump these XDCAMs for an F55 :P

LOL!
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I guess all this "disappointment" just goes to show how used to things people can get. A few years ago an "upgrade" to a camera was pretty much unheard of. RED has created a monster with its largess.

On another note, most people seem to think an increase in the upgrade price is indicative of a possible increase in the price of the Dragon. A different possibility is that it may signal a $3K decrease in the price of the Epic MX; thus justifying the new delta between the two. Just a thought.
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very well put Terry.i recommend those people to check out alexa xt upgrade costs who thinks price is huge..
dont understand those type of comments.Red never promised upgrade for any product
 
I am amazed by all the bitching and complaining about the upgrade going up in price. First of all, RED is under absolutely no obligation to offer an upgrade at all, they do it out of respect and loyalty to their customers. It has to be way more work and effort on their end to upgrade an existing camera than to just build a brand new one. I have to think that the price increase is intended to get the upgrade process finished as soon as possible, so they can devote their resources to other things.

And the notion that Dragon is in some way just a baby step beyond MX or is not a "finished" product is ludicrous. Ask David Fincher and Jeff Cronenweth whether they think Dragon is finished. My Dragon has been used on dozens of shoots since I got it in April and the images it produces are spectacular…creamy skin tones, smoothly rolled off highlights, detail in the shadows. Nothing against MX…I loved my MX when that was what I was using…but Dragon goes well beyond MX in most capabilities.

Like all RED products, Dragon is a constantly-evolving beast. Each time new firmware comes out, our cameras improve…for free! Things like the Interchangeable OLPF's aren't band-aid fixes to Dragon's flaws as some have hinted…instead, it is a completely new solution/feature that gives us cinematographers more control over the imagery we capture.

I realize that the upgrade is expensive…I had to pay it too and I'm not a rich guy…but how about cutting RED some slack for their willingness to go above and beyond for their customers.

Just my .02…YMMV...
 
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Kemalettin Sert said:
Red never promised upgrade for any product
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Tom Greenberg said:
First of all, RED is under absolutely no obligation to offer an upgrade at all, they do it out of respect and loyalty to their customers. It has to be way more work and effort on their end to upgrade an existing camera than to just build a brand new one. I have to think that the price increase is intended to get the upgrade process finished as soon as possible, so they can devote their resources to other things.
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Red was built on the "obsolescence obsolete" concept. It's just that it started with free upgrade programs, then interesting upgrade programs, and now we are in the expensive upgrade program period. People will get used to it with time.
http://www.creativeplanetnetwork.co...lescence-obsolete/410690#sthash.lKMsCgDw.dpuf
 
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