DaVinci Resolve 10

[Mike S. M.]

I wonder if BMD cut the Resolve panel's price to $5995 and remove the 3rd panel support (including the old legacy panel from 2K Plus and previous Resolve) will their customer happy?

Like I said in a prior post, I'm pretty sure people would still complain and not be happy. But I hope I would be wrong.

 

[Mike S. M.]

As I said, every color grading software manufacturer supports third party panels. If BM would stop supporting those panels, they would quickly slide into irrelevance and someone would very quickly take their place.

Really? And exactly who would take their spot? Who would be offering a HD color grading program on Resolve's level for free and a full fledged 4K color grading application for only $995, with basically free upgrades forever? Could you point just one company that would be willing to do that to take Resolve's spot?

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Really? And exactly who would take their spot? Who would be offering a HD color grading program on Resolve's level for free and a full fledged 4K color grading application for only $995, with basically free upgrades forever? Could you point just one company that would be willing to do that to take Resolve's spot?

Baselight is $1000, for example. No serious graders work without a panel.

 

[Peter Proniewicz-Brooks]

Baselight is $1000, for example. No serious graders work without a panel.

Do you get free updates from full version to full version? BM is the only company I've ever heard do that outside of promotional periods for those buying a version between the announcement and releas of its successor.

 

[jake blackstone]

Sure. But how much is Baselight again? Or even Baselight Editions?
This is the point you are missing, or choosing to miss. Should BM raise prices to match Baselight? Then they may be able to open up like you want, because they would actually be making a killing in the software price itself.

Baselight additions is exactly the same price as Resolve, $995 and it now works on FCP, Avid on Mac and PC, Nuke, with work in progress for FCPX and Flame and even may be for Premiere. And you need to pay only one $995 payment for all those plugins. And yes, the BE uses three trackballs just fine for Log grading and you can customize controls and they are even bidirectional. You select the control and display changes, twist the knob and readouts are actually moving. It's the very same MC Color, that is used on Resolve.
And while we're at it, please point out to me, when did I propose, that BM should raise their prices or for that matter, where in this conversation did I even mentioned anything about the price of Resolve?

 

[jake blackstone]

Really? And exactly who would take their spot? Who would be offering a HD color grading program on Resolve's level for free and a full fledged 4K color grading application for only $995, with basically free upgrades forever? Could you point just one company that would be willing to do that to take Resolve's spot?

Adobe easily could do the trick, if they applied themselves. Speedgrade is not too bad. The new update is actually pretty good.
Apple could have done it as well, if they so desired, before they gave up on Color.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I'm relaying the essence of the conversation with a few of BM people on the subject of reason of including editing package in Resolve. They are being realistic, as BM doesn't want to create an impression, that Resolve is a full blown NLE, because it's not in any way, shape or form. No real editor worth their salt would want to edit in Resolve in it's present form. The inclusion of editing tools is a start of creation of a finishing package. As I said, the inclusion of high end tools, like proper NR, optical flow, OFX plugin architecture, ability to manipulate individual color channels for images on RGB, HSL or YUV basis, high quality keyer, title generator, DCP delivery etc. indicates an attempt to create a grading/finishing package. It's work in progress and who knows what will happen in the future. Does this all means, that you will not be able to do simple edit, that doesn't require multicam and other tools, that editors may find indispensable? Of coarse not. I had seen people editing in AE and I know there will be people using Resolve for editing as well. So, there...

When you say "high quality keyer" can I hope that also implies that HSL selection for secondaries has also improved (i.e. moved beyond its current 1995-style incarnation)?

 

[jake blackstone]

Like I said in a prior post, I'm pretty sure people would still complain and not be happy. But I hope I would be wrong.

No, people SHOULD complain. And smart companies will use that to their advantage. If everyone is happy with the tools, progress stops and complacency starts. Believe it or not, with all my ravings and rantings, some of those complaints, that you' want me to stop actually end up being incorporated. I'm not going to point out exactly which new feature, but I had been told, that one of those is a direct result of my personal numerous complains.
You're welcome:emote_22_yikes:

 

[jake blackstone]

When you say "high quality keyer" can I hope that also implies that HSL selection for secondaries has also improved (i.e. moved beyond its current 1995-style incarnation)?

Hi Rob.
As I said, I just relayed the information, that was expressed to me. I highly doubt, that will see Keylight or Flame style Master keyer with pixel spread. But I can clearly see the progress made and as long it's progress, I'm content to wait

 

[jake blackstone]

Do you get free updates from full version to full version? BM is the only company I've ever heard do that outside of promotional periods for those buying a version between the announcement and releas of its successor.

What other software company makes hardware for public consumption or vice versa? As I already pointed out, BM is a hardware company, that uses software to fuel their hardware sales. That's why you get free Resolve with each camera. That's because this giveaway generates more hardware sales, when that Resolve is installed. That's why even free Resolve Lite generates hardware sales. Heck, BM could stop charging for Resolve altogether and I doubt their bottom line will even notice it. There are more ways to make money, than to charge for the upgrade. The perpetual free upgrade ends up driving more sales, as now everyone will be upgrading their Decklinks to 4k.

 

[Luis Otero]

No, people SHOULD complain. And smart companies will use that to their advantage. If everyone is happy with the tools, progress stops and complacency starts. Believe it or not, with all my ravings and rantings, some of those complaints, that you' want me to stop actually end up being incorporated. I'm not going to point out exactly which new feature, but I had been told, that one of those is a direct result of my numerous complains.
You're welcome:emote_22_yikes:

Cannot agree more...! The feedback (called by others "complaint", "ranting", etc., etc., etc...) is what makes the companies to invest resources on improving and optimizing their products.

I can say, as a matter of fact as Jake humbly expressed, that BMD is one of them, and they do not mind it at all because they are a MATURE company, being run by a MATURE management team.

The best part: it is like the FLU; without downplaying BMD, IMHO they caught it from Red Digital Cinema, the prime example of a company that WANTS to hear from their base. A "RANT" few years ago evolved into Epic-X.

Just saying...

 

[Peter Proniewicz-Brooks]

What other software company makes hardware for public consumption or vice versa? As I already pointed out, BM is a hardware company, that uses software to fuel their hardware sales. That's why you get free Resolve with each camera. That's because this giveaway generates more hardware sales, when that Resolve is installed. That's why even free Resolve Lite generates hardware sales. Heck, BM could stop charging for Resolve altogether and I doubt their bottom line will even notice it. There are more ways to make money, than to charge for the upgrade. The perpetual free upgrade ends up driving more sales, as now everyone will be upgrading their Decklinks to 4k.

I am quite aware of that, the point I was making was that the price being quoted for baselight wasn't really a comparison, as software wise Resolve wins that battle. REsolve restricts choice mostly in I/O devices compared to it's competitors. Apart from their grading panel in my experience hardware wise BMD products are usually competitively priced, a Resolve setup with a Cooper/MC color/Wave/Elements is likely to come out cheaper than rigs based around competitor software.

Mapping on the 3rd party panels is one of resolves biggest weakness, if they solve that or release a low priced panel of their own (even better do both) and it would get even more so.

 

[M Most]

Baselight additions is exactly the same price as Resolve, $995 and it now works on FCP, Avid on Mac and PC, Nuke, with work in progress for FCPX and Flame and even may be for Premiere.

Baselight Editions is a plugin software add on to existing NLE and compositing hosts, and as such does not have its own timeline, still store capabilities, performance, file format support, or any number of things when compared to a stand alone, dedicated piece of software like Resolve or, well, Baselight. The original stated purpose of Baselight Editions was to bring to market a way to move grading information between a full Baselight system and those host programs without ambiguity and in a more complete way than simplified approaches like CDLs can provide. That's not to say it can't be used more comprehensively (it can) but that was the design criteria. To compare based on price and ignore these facts is very misleading and presumptuous.

 

[M Most]

What other software company makes hardware for public consumption or vice versa?

Apple.

 

[Frank Weeks]

The best part: it is like the FLU; without downplaying BMD, IMHO they caught it from Red Digital Cinema, the prime example of a company that WANTS to hear from their base. A "RANT" few years ago evolved into Epic-X.

Well put Luis

 

[jake blackstone]

Yes, of coarse. I guess I should have qualified it by post production

 

[jake blackstone]

Baselight Editions is a plugin software add on to existing NLE and compositing hosts, and as such does not have its own timeline, still store capabilities, performance, file format support, or any number of things when compared to a stand alone, dedicated piece of software like Resolve or, well, Baselight. The original stated purpose of Baselight Editions was to bring to market a way to move grading information between a full Baselight system and those host programs without ambiguity and in a more complete way than simplified approaches like CDLs can provide. That's not to say it can't be used more comprehensively (it can) but that was the design criteria. To compare based on price and ignore these facts is very misleading and presumptuous.

Haha, detante haven't lasted very long
BE is a first iteration of a Filmlight business model, where their goal is to make Baselight as ubiquitous as Resolve, while making workflow easier and more elegant and ultimately utilizing it as a glue, providing a virtual handshake between production, vfx and finish. On a surface, BE may seem just as simple plugin for performing simple grades using different host applications. My understanding, that next version of BE for Avid will have a standard still store. Also, right now there is no mechanism to directly manipulate metadata. Host app must be used for that. Again, that's next step in molding BE into a more complete color grading solution. Frankly, even now I really like the way BE on Avid works. It has pretty much all main features, that one canl expect from a standard BL, including GPU support for real time grading and playback, the new area tracker, log grading, multiple windows, unlimited layers etc, all wrapped in a familiar BL interface. So, right now BE is more of a demonstration platform, but seeing the progress Filmlight demonstrating, I have no doubt BE soon will be a viable addition to the toolbox of any post professional.

 

[Luis Otero]

Another suggestion for V10:

While fine-tuning a footage for a documentary, it came to my mind (if it does not already exist), that the "A"/"B" buttons of the 3 wheel Element panel could be used to switch between the "3 Way Color" and "Log" modes. If there is a current way to switch among them, please advise.

Thanks,

 

[M Most]

Haha, detante haven't lasted very long
BE is a first iteration of a Filmlight business model, where their goal is to make Baselight as ubiquitous as Resolve, while making workflow easier and more elegant and ultimately utilizing it as a glue, providing a virtual handshake between production, vfx and finish.

Sorry, Jake, but regardless of the eventual roadmap, what it is today is not comparable to a full featured grading toolset that is able to access all of the processing horsepower of the hardware it's running on, and without having to go through a translation layer or software host. I cannot think of one example of a plugin that succeeded in becoming a mainstream power tool that was preferable to a dedicated platform. The only way I see the scenario you're referring to succeeding to any serious extent is if Filmlight buys Avid or vice versa. Which itself is not out of the realm of possibility, but certainly has not happened to this point. I don't doubt that in some situations there are users that will find the Baselight Edition approach just fine. In many ways, it's not that different than color correction in Symphony, which although pretty clunky, attracted a lot of "one box solution" users for many types of material. But in the world of dedicated, serious color grading work, I just don't see it.

Besides, what would Filmlight do with those resources if Avid was acquired by Blackmagic? :001_huh:

 

[jake blackstone]

Sorry, Jake, but regardless of the eventual roadmap, what it is today is not comparable to a full featured grading toolset that is able to access all of the processing horsepower of the hardware it's running on, and without having to go through a translation layer or software host. I cannot think of one example of a plugin that succeeded in becoming a mainstream power tool that was preferable to a dedicated platform. The only way I see the scenario you're referring to succeeding to any serious extent is if Filmlight buys Avid or vice versa. Which itself is not out of the realm of possibility, but certainly has not happened to this point. I don't doubt that in some situations there are users that will find the Baselight Edition approach just fine. In many ways, it's not that different than color correction in Symphony, which although pretty clunky, attracted a lot of "one box solution" users for many types of material. But in the world of dedicated, serious color grading work, I just don't see it.

Besides, what would Filmlight do with those resources if Avid was acquired by Blackmagic? :001_huh:

Well, right now BE is nowhere near a full gradings suite. And first try for FCP was a disaster and pretty much still is. I guess, the latest FCP version now supports the GPU render, so i'll give it a try. FL was surprised by the demise of FCP as much as the next guy. On the other hand, BE for Avid is a much more powerful and mature product. Obviously I'm keeping my fingers crossed and hope for the new MacPro and, if that happens, there are rumblings, that FL will finally release a real BL on a Mac. The question is what all this has to do with Resolve V10? I'm just hoping, that someone will stay in the game and fight. Who's left? Speedgrade is still very much behind the curve, even though it's got some new cool toys. Assimilate? I have no idea what's keeping them afloat. Lustre is gone. FilmMaster is on the descending slope. Mistilca and Pablo? Don't know enough, but I know it's pricy. I don't want Resolve be the only solution left standing. Because, if that happens, no amount of complaining will help any longer, when there is no competition. At the beginning I wasn't a fan of Resolve, but it certainly grew on me. Thanks to Remote grading now I'm using it with ever increasing frequency. I was pleasantly surprised to finally see in V10 the persistent cache. I'd love to see the persistent cache used for debayer and noise reduction even more. This way many users could finally ditch another unreliable, overpriced single use hardware- RR. The motion analysis is utilized in motion flow and a proper noise reduction. I even suggested ways to use this data in order to improve the scene detector. I saw the beginning of inclusion of creative tools, like OFX and various ways to break the signal down to it's basic components. I saw the mappings of contrast and pivot and for a second I though, here we go, finally proper mapping for grading, alas... Nevertheless, I'm grateful to see the little mapping changes and realize, that the needle finally had moved just a bit...