Dark skin in high contrast situations

[C. Burkhart]

Ok, so yes I know this is a RED forum, with an inherent bias towards RED cameras, but it also is filled with experienced pros, so I am going to ask my question anyway.

I will be shooting a feature in West Africa for five weeks.
The subject is an albino child in the midst of a very dark skinned population.
To make matters more difficult there are many high contrast situations including forest/jungle scenes, desert plains, etc.

So we are talking about high contrast scenes with extremely dark and extremely light skinned folks.
We are trying to avoid bringing in heavy duty lights to fill, because electricity is very unstable there and carrying heavy (and seriously blimped) generators into the mountains isn't an option any of us are in love with.

What camera ? (Two actually). Be objective, think about some other brands as well. You know the usual suspects and perhaps a few offshoots. Obvously the Alexa and RED Helium, but what about F65 (love the color palette) or F55, Varicam, etc. ?

Suggestions for dealing with lighting, etc. ?

Dynamic range is important, however bear in mind I am wary of HDR when it comes to shooting human beings. Crazy stuff happens to skin sometimes...

 

[Adrian Jebef]

Yer gonna need some fill lights, bro. Ain't no way around dat.

 

[C. Burkhart]

Yer gonna need some fill lights, bro. Ain't no way around dat.

Actually thinking of a Kflect style system. (Based more on a few small parabolic light sources and many lightweight reflectors rather than large power hungry light sources).

 

[Björn Benckert]

I would use reflectors and I would use HDRx. and some small Battery driven lights. In africa you got sunlight which you can reflect or it´s night and then it goes pith black and in between is a short sunset/rise. Hit the actors with reflectors and expose A track for the dark skin and have B track a few stops under to cover the backgrounds and the albino.

 

[C. Burkhart]

I would use reflectors and I would use HDRx. and some small Battery driven lights. In africa you got sunlight which you can reflect or it´s night and then it goes pith black and in between is a short sunset/rise. Hit the actors with reflectors and expose A track for the dark skin and have B track a few stops under to cover the backgrounds and the albino.

Thanks Bjorn, as I mentioned before though, what concerns me about HDRx is that I have seen some pretty funky artifacts on occasion with skin, especially in mottled forest situations...

 

[Josiah Duncan]

Shooting with reflectors or large silks requires no additional power.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I have worked on numerous series with people of different skin color (sometimes widely so), and the only thing that worked for me consistently was multiple power windows to optimize the lighting on each person, applied in post. Good makeup helps immensely, as does careful lighting. If this isn't possible on location, then at least try to get some good eyelight and backlight on all the actors and enough fill to give the post crew a reasonable starting point.

 

[C. Burkhart]

I have worked on numerous series with people of different skin color (sometimes widely so), and the only thing that worked for me consistently was multiple power windows to optimize the lighting on each person, applied in post. Good makeup helps immensely, as does careful lighting. If this isn't possible on location, then at least try to get some good eyelight and backlight on all the actors and enough fill to give the post crew a reasonable starting point.

Interesting response Marc. Some very practical advice. Totally agree for the eyelight and backlight, my thinking too in fact. Curious what for you represented good makeup ?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Thanks Bjorn, as I mentioned before though, what concerns me about HDRx is that I have seen some pretty funky artifacts on occasion with skin, especially in mottled forest situations...

If they aren't moving much (talking heads) here shouldn't really be any artifacts outside of grading a camera with very wide dynamic range. This does sound like one of the rare instances where HDRx should work. But yes it'll come down to tasteful power windows to make it look natural. Just use very light HDRx to expose for each person individually and then do a power window to blend between the two exposures.

 

[Adrian Jebef]

HDRx ain't gonna do nuttin fer ya. The Alexa65 ain't gonna help neither. Grip gear like bounces and reflectors are a no brainer but yer gonna need lights. Ain't no way around dat. At least get a small genny and some kinos or led fixtures. The sun don't always shine.

BTW dark african skin needs to be lit, usually with hard sources, as that's how you create contrast in the face. Yer concern on this project is gonna be shielding that lighting contrast from yer more pale actor. You should be watching movies and taking notes. I bet ya ain't gonna find any films with dark-skinned actors that haven't been lit.

 

[C. Burkhart]

HDRx ain't gonna do nuttin fer ya. The Alexa65 ain't gonna help neither. Grip gear like bounces and reflectors are a no brainer but yer gonna need lights. Ain't no way around dat. At least get a small genny and some kinos or led fixtures. The sun don't always shine.

BTW dark african skin needs to be lit, usually with hard sources, as that's how you create contrast in the face. Yer concern on this project is gonna be shielding that lighting contrast from yer more pale actor. You should be watching movies and taking notes. I bet ya ain't gonna find any films with dark-skinned actors that haven't been lit.

Yo man apparently you are not familiar with the kflect system which I mentioned previously. For info there is a light source. A single one. It is a 1200w source with a parallel beam, which actually multiplies its intensity 10 fold and allows for multiple loghting schemes at the same time. Perfect for places without a strong cinema infrastructure. Thus even if a generator is required it would only need to be a small one.

https://www.kflect.com

 

[Chris McKechnie]

Helium Camera and IPP2 Low Con Rolloff 2 or 4 will be your best friend. Really helps out hi-contrast situations.

 

[Adrian Jebef]

Yo man apparently you are not familiar with the kflect system which I mentioned previously. For info there is a light source. A single one. It is a 1200w source with a parallel beam, which actually multiplies its intensity 10 fold and allows for multiple loghting schemes at the same time. Perfect for places without a strong cinema infrastructure. Thus even if a generator is required it would only need to be a small one.

https://www.kflect.com

Just make sure to bring more than one, yo!





In all honesty your project is kinda the stress test for any film stock or digital sensor. I know yer asking what cam is gonna help but I'd recommend shooting on a BM cam if it gives you more budget for lights cause yer gonna need lights more than a cam with extended DR.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I bet ya ain't gonna find any films with dark-skinned actors that haven't been lit.

Instead of lighting them up with extra light use the beautifull characteristic of the reflection of the dark skin.
Dark skin are beautifull to work with, but you have to think differently about it and not trying to poor light on their faces to make them look like white people!

My proposal would be to use the light reflection and choose your background.

Pat

 

[Björn Benckert]

Just make sure to bring more than one, yo!





In all honesty your project is kinda the stress test for any film stock or digital sensor. I know yer asking what cam is gonna help but I'd recommend shooting on a BM cam if it gives you more budget for lights cause yer gonna need lights more than a cam with extended DR.

HDRx and high bit rate goes a long way especially on helium.


When the sun hits hard you need not only light but also a nuclear power plant and some rather big lights to make a difference in the daylight. reflectors on the other hand makes huge difference.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Lots of bounce is a good start, as are several of the suggestions above. I would add that since you only have one pale skinned actor, it might be easier to put a silk on a pole and have a grip keep it between the actor and the main light source (likely the sun). I'd also try and slow down any bright surfaces, objects with silks/nets/etc. If you can keep your highly reflective elements from going nuclear, then you can open up the stop a bit to avoid underexposing dark skinned talent. I would also look at make up for the Albino actor that maintains their skin hue (or very close) but cuts reflectivity. Sort of like dulling spray/powder, only for skin.

Cheers - #19

 

[Reuben Evans]

You might want to look into hexolux lights run off of v mounts. Their RunGun is very portable.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Interesting response Marc. Some very practical advice. Totally agree for the eyelight and backlight, my thinking too in fact. Curious what for you represented good makeup ?

Hire somebody really good, preferably somebody with a great resume and industry credits, a makeup artist in the Make-Up Artists & Hair Stylists Guild from IATSE Local 706 in America.

 

[David Battistella]

You would be surprised at how a 10x10 or 30x30 Kflect can punch what ever light you have in the direction you want it. Very light and easy to have everywhere. Try to use a flexible arm or noga arms with a ball head and you can literally point direct them the same way you would a light. Once you have them aimed, you can swithc out the different densities/softness/hardness to get the light you want. Great for redirecting window light or creating rims and fills.

These are lit with one source and multiple Kflect 10x10's and I am talking Centimeters. Shot these tests inside 3 minutes just by swapping the various panels never moved the source light or the initial panel position once it was set. They are magnetic so you just swap them.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...hting-System&p=1394328&viewfull=1#post1394328

David

 

[C. Burkhart]

Thanks for all the comments so far. Very interesting thread to see how people respond differently to the same challenging scenario. Very informative.

Just make sure to bring more than one, yo!

In all honesty your project is kinda the stress test for any film stock or digital sensor. I know yer asking what cam is gonna help but I'd recommend shooting on a BM cam if it gives you more budget for lights cause yer gonna need lights more than a cam with extended DR.

I would never take only a single light to a foreign location. Backup's are essential. That said, one advantage of the system is that the parabolic reflector can be put on a joker or other small HMI light sources (800, 400, etc.) in a pinch.

In terms of BM I have to say, that even though John Brawley swears by them, I frankly would not risk them in a foreign location. They are not reliable (friends have had myriads of issues) and frankly, I just don't understand how a company can release yet another iteration of a flawed sensor which has not been corrected. Despite proclamations of how invisible they supposedly are, magenta corners and a green center spot in neutral situations are very real on this camera and I am not buying into the arguments of their fans about it being a non-issue. I have been around the block enough times to be able to say when the Emperor has no clothes. There is an issue there and it is real. Not to mention possible FPN, cross hatching and a very limited ISO sweetspot. This is not the kind of tool that is appropriate from the point of view of professional responsibility, the tremendous diversity of lighting situations and the challenges of this film. Why scrimp when it comes to the camera, when you have moved an entire crew to a foreign destination ? Even Brawley still uses Alexa's beside his BM cameras. RELIABILITY is of utmost importance shooting on location in a place like Cameroon without a strong support infrastructure.

Lots of bounce is a good start, as are several of the suggestions above. I would add that since you only have one pale skinned actor, it might be easier to put a silk on a pole and have a grip keep it between the actor and the main light source (likely the sun). I'd also try and slow down any bright surfaces, objects with silks/nets/etc. If you can keep your highly reflective elements from going nuclear, then you can open up the stop a bit to avoid underexposing dark skinned talent. I would also look at make up for the Albino actor that maintains their skin hue (or very close) but cuts reflectivity. Sort of like dulling spray/powder, only for skin.

Cheers - #19

There seems to be a developing consensus that reflectors and silks are really the way to go in this situation. A few parabolic light sources is really a no brainer too. It's all about sculpting the light between nature and reflection. i think it will be easier to pick up eyelights and backlight with a system like the Kflect. It will of course require grips or lighting assistants already familiar with the system.

I actually shot fashion here in Paris for more than 20 years, so the importance of good makeup is not lost on me, hence my previous quesition. My tendency would be to ask the makeup artist to accentuate the contours of the face by using a slightly pearl powder below the cheekbones and the eyes and under the nose and also to matt down the forehead and nose, as bright spots on dark skin is really tremendously challenging in high contrast situations. The actual color of the base is also an important question in terms of the camera used and only tests will reveal where we need to go.

You would be surprised at how a 10x10 or 30x30 Kflect can punch what ever light you have in the direction you want it. Very light and easy to have everywhere. Try to use a flexible arm or noga arms with a ball head and you can literally point direct them the same way you would a light. Once you have them aimed, you can swithc out the different densities/softness/hardness to get the light you want. Great for redirecting window light or creating rims and fills.

These are lit with one source and multiple Kflect 10x10's and I am talking Centimeters. Shot these tests inside 3 minutes just by swapping the various panels never moved the source light or the initial panel position once it was set. They are magnetic so you just swap them.


David

David, I really can clearly see the advantages of the system. Will there be another Group Buy soon ? Or perhaps you know someone selling their kit ? Lastly it strikes me that I would need a fairly large kit, with larger panels and grip stuff too. Would be interested in more detailed feedback from you on the system...

Helium Camera and IPP2 Low Con Rolloff 2 or 4 will be your best friend. Really helps out hi-contrast situations.

In terms of the camera, I think it would be interesting to conduct a test with the new Helium and HDRx to see if it can hold up in mottled lighting situations. I like that it has very little noise in it's shadows compared to previous generations of RED cameras. That was always a stumbling block for me. The other thing I feel is that I have always found skin tones to be a bit wooden on the Epic and Dragon, though having the proper OLPF does make a difference. Unfortunately HDRx has the potential to contribute to this issue. I have found the Alexa to be easier and more nuanced in that regard. However, that is just me, I know many here will disagree. It is clear to me too the Alexa is essentially an HDR camera so highlight retention is easy and without the aritifacts I have seen on occasion with the Dragon when in HDR mode. That said I have noticed that the Alexa has on occasion had a "grey sun" which clearly show that in the desire to have a nice highlight roll-off the highlight values have been pushed down on their matrix. A bit like the old process of flashing a film stock to retain details in the highlights.

The other camera I am interested in is the new Sony 65 camera which should be coming out soon. Word on the grapevine is that it will be an F65 in an F55 body (thank god in terms of the weight), meaning that it will likely be an 8K sensor with a downscale to 4K for added sharpness. The global shutter (necessary for the many motion shots we will do) and the expanded palette would be very nice in this environment. I would prefer great color depth (it still has the best color palette out there) when reaching into the shadows and when dealing with blue water/sky shots and green forests, where nuance tends to get lost as compression schemes are applied as one goes down the post production pipeline.