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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cooke Mini S4 vs Leica Summicron

First, are you looking for advice about Mini S4's and Summicrons (like the title of the discussion) or S4's and Summicrons (which is what Shane is talking about)?

Second, Summicrons kill Mini S4's.

But - I agree with Shane that S4's (not the minis) add dimension to subjects.

I actually sold my S4's in preparation to buy the Summicrons. Then I played with the Summicrons, and then didn't buy them.

There isn't a day that goes by that I don't wish I had my S4's back. Might get another set.

Kind of a foolish move on my part.

B Jonsson
 
Disclosure; I own a full set of Mini-S4's.

That said, I am a big Summilux-C fan and I was very excited with the news of Summicrons, as I love the approach of a more affordable set, just as the Mini's offer. However, I was disappointed in just how different the Summicrons are versus Summilux, especially the abandoning of cam-driven focus scales and aspherical elements. I feel like jump from Mini-S4's to S4's is a smaller gap than the jump from Summicron to Summilux. That said, the Summicron's are extremely nice, despite being not as close to the Summilux as I'd like... but we should also note that they are in a completely different price range than Mini-S4's. The Summicron's are 100k for a set of six, while the Mini's are 46,000 for a set of six. In fact, if you had the budget for Summicron's, you'd likely be pricing against regular S4's, or other lenses.


I would say both sets are amazing, but different. Most films won't be deciding between these two sets. They will be already be in one camp or the other just from budgetary standpoint. If I were to decide again on my purchase, I would go with Mini-S4s again for many reasons. First, because I love Cooke lenses! The way they look and the way they feel (mechanics.) It's just my personal preference and comfort zone. Also, the price is right and fast sensors have made T2.8 lenses more relevant than ever. Also, Cooke Mini-S4's have the swappable front and rear uncoated elements which I have (fronts only) and have found this option as a very exciting alternative to get a differnt look when appropriate.

I think with either set you can't really go wrong. Both sets are quite amazing but they are also in different tiers of pricing. One set is T/2 and 100k and the other is T/2.8 and 46k. You'll be able to make beautiful images with either set, it might just come down to three things... the subtle look differences, the pricing/rental market and the stop.

If my clients had 900/day+ for lenses, I would probably upgrade to S4's, or maybe even..... Summicron's. Probably S4's though.
 
Also, be aware that the Mini-S4's probably cover less than the Lieca Summicrons, sensor wise.

The Mini's cover 33.54mm+ and the Lieca's are 36mm+?... I did a Mini-S4 test on Dragon 6k and found 32mm and above covers everything (IMO), but the 25mm and 18mm only cover at 6kHD or 6kWS, with acceptable levels of uneven field illumination.

At FF 6K, the 18 and 25 did show vignetting issues in the extreme corners. Again 6K HD and 6K WS tended to chop off these areas of issue.

I've not tested the 6K Dragon with Summicron's but based on the advertised specs, should cover a bit better.

See the test below:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...ooke-MiniS4-i-and-Dragon-6k-FF-WS-and-HD-test
 
You might want to take a look at the Schneider Xenar vIII lenses. They are in the price range of the mini-S4's but open to T2 instead of T2.8, have incredible bokeh, (better than the Cookes) probably less breathing than the two sets you mentioned and have a nice middleground feeling between Zeiss and the Cooke-look.
 
Alexandre de Mortemart said:
Hi,

I am hesitating between these two set of lenses to shoot with our Dragon. I know the main differences -FF and speed- but would appreciate some advice from whomever experienced both.
Below given test -S4 vs Summilux- is a bit confusing...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5febma4_OE
Thanks.
Click to expand...


Lots and lots of thoughts.

In Shane's video he is comparing the Cooke S4 (T2 spherical) versus the Leica Summilux-C (T1.4 Aspherical) Primes.

I actually don't have any negative feelings for either styles of looks. Flat or more "stereographic". Curvature of field is sometimes desirable for projects. For other projects it can be less ideal. As to what a movie looks like, that's up to you.

Cooke S4 Primes have a beautiful look which have been used for many, many productions. I still think Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows just looks utterly gorgeous. They do experience curvature of field however, but that's lending to the "Cooke Look" which is more or less shared by the Mini S4 T2.8 Primes. Personally T2.8 is pretty slow for a prime lens, but they are pretty darn nice.

Leica Summilux-C primes to me are the best motion picture primes to date. T1.4 and nearly zero chromatic and optical aberrations. They are flat due to the corrections of the aspherical elements involved. They are also sudo-telecentric in the sense that they exhibit minimal breathing.

The Leica Summicron-C primes however are different. They are spherical T2.0 optics. More or less a weird spot between an Zeiss Ultra Prime and a Cooke S4 in my mind. They are rather lovely though and cover Dragon nicely. Modern coatings. They do experience a bit more curvature of field than the Summilux-C Primes.

If I was purchasing a set today I'd likely aim for the Summicron-C primes.

However, I purchased about 8 months before they became available and I went with the Schneider Cine-Xenar III Primes. They are unique and telecentric. No real breathing at all. And one of the prettiest out of focus images you can have really. I chose them over limited sets of S4 and Ultras, but that was a decision I did not take likely. I tested potential glass within my reach fairly thoroughly first.

Honestly the Red Pro Primes are still bloody nice in terms of a sharp image and decent speed at T1.8. Coverage is the only worry at 6K with Dragon. If it's a personal set I'd even take a look at the Illumina S35 T1.3 speeds. They have a lot of bang for the buck. Safe bet are Zeiss Ultra Primes for sure. T1.9 and produce nice high resolving images.

Lots of options these days with more on the way.
 
Thanks for your reply. I was looking to buy Mini S4s and from the test I conducted they have a better coverage (6K 2:1) vs the S4 with the same glass and same feeling, sharpness...I personally find the Summicron's flat compared to Mini S4s.
 
Thanks Ryan. I am planning to purchase a set of 3 lenses to start and indeed you are right the cost of Summicron's is double. I still love that Cooke feel that you do not get with Summicron's. S4's from the test I made do not cover properly 6k 2:1 hence the reason <i was wanting to opt for the mini's. Cheers
 
Hi Phil thanks for your advice. I fully agree on the cost factor and not ready to go for either S4 or Summilux for my personal set. I can always rent them when needed.
I worked as a still photographer for 20 years using Leica Summicron T2...but that was in black and white...but motion picture and color are a very (very) different exercise all together.
I feel Mini S4s T2.8 is not really a problem. Red Pro primes are too heavy for me...and not very found of Zeiss Ultra.

I shall take your advice and try and test the Cine Xenar III and Illumina's.
All the best
Cheers
 
Alexandre de Mortemart said:
Thanks for your reply. I was looking to buy Mini S4s and from the test I conducted they have a better coverage (6K 2:1) vs the S4 with the same glass and same feeling, sharpness...I personally find the Summicron's flat compared to Mini S4s.
Click to expand...

Alexandre de Mortemart said:
Hi Phil thanks for your advice. I fully agree on the cost factor and not ready to go for either S4 or Summilux for my personal set. I can always rent them when needed.
I worked as a still photographer for 20 years using Leica Summicron T2...but that was in black and white...but motion picture and color are a very (very) different exercise all together.
I feel Mini S4s T2.8 is not really a problem. Red Pro primes are too heavy for me...and not very found of Zeiss Ultra.

I shall take your advice and try and test the Cine Xenar III and Illumina's.
All the best
Cheers
Click to expand...


Cheers Alexandre. Just remember that the video is showing the Summilux-C Primes and not the Summicron-C Primes. The Still Lens Summicrons are vastly different than the cinema version. The Mini S4s are certainly more "bulbous". IF that's the look you're enjoying than you know which set is for you!
 
I thought the Summicron's were a downgraded version of the SUmmilux which does not seem to be the case. Very much aware of the difference between Still and Motion world. Again thanks for your time.
 
Clayton I will indeed try to get hold of a set of Xenar's and test them out. Phil was actually suggesting the same.
Cheers
 
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