Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet/Epic @ 2k vs. 5D/7D?

Simple advice.

This is a 4k camera with 2k windowed sensor put in there for high speed shots.

The same argument for S16 glass happened in 2007 when th R1 was released.

I know of ZERO complete films that were shot 2k on s16 glass. ZERO!

I though about doing one as an experiment for a grainy look but figured I'd shoot 4k, have the resolution and to what I wanted in post.

Just shoot 4k. Stop. Period. The end. The rest is nonsense.


David
 
Just one more thing.

At 2k it's not 1/2 the resolution it's 1/4.

A 2k frame fits into a 4k frame 4 times.

So if you want to throw out 75% of your resolution that is effectively what you do in 2k mode.

On the flip side it still looks better than a 5D or 7D so that tells you a lot about the mysterium sensor and RAW image capture.


David
 
I appreciate your strong feelings, David, but shooting 4k requires extra investment in both media and storage, not to mention transcode and file copy time. A lot of my clients have very low budgets, and I need to figure out how to get the best looking image possible while still remaining in business. I'm not talking about shooting a film, or even HD material, in 2k. I'm talking about quick-and-dirty client work. Interviews, web videos, etc. So yeah, I do want to throw away 75% of the resolution, if it's gonna make a job more profitable while not really having an impact on the final product.

I d/l'd Tonaci's (thanks for making footage available, Tonaci!) Scarlet footage and cropped it to 2k in RedCine-X. It looks great. About the same sharpness as a DSLR (maybe even sharper), but WAY more organic and filmic. If you're targeting SD or even 720p, the Scarlet, even at 2k, is clearly a great tool. So my original question -- "Does the Scarlet @ 2k look at least as good as a DSLR?" -- is answered with a definitive "Yes, and then some." I got nervous with Philip Bloom's comment, but clearly he's pickier than me :)

Now, the question is, can I convince my clients to pay for the extra image quality (or get new ones who will)? ;)
 
Joshua,

Do what ever works for you.

Just do it knowing the facts.

-The camera costs the same.
-The SSD media cost the same.

You'll save some money on LaCie hard drives.

Before going on to one Tonaci 4k clip that you cropped you might want to make a small investment in a rental day and do all kinds of tests. Low light, interviews, daylight, tungsten, high ISO, charts, faces, skin tones.

Shoot it all 2k on S16 glass (heck, splurge and shoot some 3k too (sarcasm))

But please. Before making a decision on 2k over 4k do a serious cost analysis on the extra LaCie hard disk space and the money you save.

If you have low paying or non paying clients then maybe consider the investment very carefully.

To me you buy a 4k camera to shoot 4k.

It's like saying I have a 35mm film camera but I want to run 16mm through it because it's cheaper to post.

I'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble and I'm sure you are a big boy and can make your own decisions, but some thinking is flawed from the start. It's all free advice, do with it what you like.

David
 
I agree with Joshua... for some things...
Probably the post and the management is better if you shoot 2K and if is what clients want/should have for the price that is paying, so ok...
But shooting in 4K and have a better image could take to you more clients and more revenue...
Also for the web, a 4K shot is still better then the 2K one, at 1080p or also at 720!
 
Seems you guys are neglecting the frame rates at 2k. It is the only way to get 1080p/60 (ish). So if you are overcranking some 1080, or delivering 720p/60. It is the only way to go. I forsee me using tons of 2k. Probably more than 4k because of the frame rates.
 
to get a 2k epic / scarlet file... take just any r3D file and crop out a 2k big frame out of the center of it. that is what the camera does so the result is just the same...
 
Buy a scarlet and a Nikon V1.

For your specialty shots you can shoot 400fps on the v1.

It won't intercut perfectly, but if your clients are cheap and dirty then they won't mind.

Finally - one more thing.

_Workflow_

Please - do yourself a favor and shoot 4k for normal stuff, you can use higher redcode like 12:1 for "quick and dirty" it looks great even at 12:1 and you won't "use as much data".

As for transcode time then you should adopt cs5.5 - it will help you especially for "cheap" jobs - Which I am imagining you are cutting yourself since it is "cheap".
 
David Battistella said:
To me you buy a 4k camera to shoot 4k.

It's like saying I have a 35mm film camera but I want to run 16mm through it because it's cheaper to post.

I'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble and I'm sure you are a big boy and can make your own decisions, but some thinking is flawed from the start. It's all free advice, do with it what you like.
Click to expand...

You're right, it does seem dumb to buy a 4k camera and shoot 2k. But I wouldn't get it just for the resolution. A Scarlet isn't just about the resolution, it's about the RAW, the HDRx, the filmic look, and the capability of 4k for the bigger jobs. Just trying to think through all the angles.

And yeah, I need to hunker down and really get to know Premiere. I'm just so used to FCP! :)
 
Everyone's needs are different, and they are different on a per-project basis. I don't think we need hard and fast rules to come out of a discussion like this, just various pieces of information and advice. The reality is, we are dealing with a flexible tool, and someone is asking for advice on how to tune that tool to his exact needs in a cost efficient manner. 'Always shoot 4K' isn't really taking into account the various factors involved.

I anticipate I will still shoot a lot of 7D. When the budget 'is what it is', and I'm shooting some simple web content where I don't need extra DR, and RAW would be a strain on post rather than an asset, I will be tempted to shoot 7D.

I also anticipate shooting at 2K on some projects. And I anticipate shooting to a pro res deck like a Samurai so I can turn in better than 7D quality footage in a ready to edit format with synced sound and timecode. I am hoping the Samurai option will be popular for my clients. I think I can save them enough money in post that a lot of shows will go for the extra quality. Sort of a middle ground between 7D and 4K Raw. I will definitely rent it on a show first and make sure it looks awesome, and isn't a huge pain in the ass on the day.

A lot of people shoot a lot of content that ends up in H264 on Vimeo or Youtube. That is just the reality. Always shooting 4K is not the best balance of cost effectiveness vs. appreciable image quality for a lot of projects.

I think shooting in 2K is viable, but I would almost lean towards Samurai at that point if I am shooting simple things that won't need too much grading. You can still do framerates, but you will have to shoot to Red media, then playback in slow motion and capture the playback to your deck. I think delivering Pro Res 422 with synced sound will be huge for a lot of clients, especially if they have a tight turn around.

Regarding DSLR vs Red on the web, take a look at this spot http://vimeo.com/9071690 . I shot DSLR, and the other shooter shot Red M, both on Canon L glass. I challenge you to pick out which shots are which. I think there is an HVX200 shot in there as well. A good colour grade can smooth out the differences, and you get can great results in a variety of shooting conditions on any of these platforms, and have happy clients at the end of the day.

It's about picking the right tool for each particular job.
 
Naim Sutherland said:
Regarding DSLR vs Red on the web, take a look at this spot http://vimeo.com/9071690 . I shot DSLR, and the other shooter shot Red M, both on Canon L glass. I challenge you to pick out which shots are which. I think there is an HVX200 shot in there as well. A good colour grade can smooth out the differences, and you get can great results in a variety of shooting conditions on any of these platforms, and have happy clients at the end of the day.

It's about picking the right tool for each particular job.
Click to expand...
r: Red, c: Canon.
r r c c c c r r c r c r c c c c c c r c r r c r r c r

They are well graded and melted ;)
 
Regarding DSLR vs Red on the web said:
http://vimeo.com/9071690[/URL] . I shot DSLR, and the other shooter shot Red M, both on Canon L glass. I challenge you to pick out which shots are which. I think there is an HVX200 shot in there as well. A good colour grade can smooth out the differences, and you get can great results in a variety of shooting conditions on any of these platforms, and have happy clients at the end of the day.

It's about picking the right tool for each particular job
Click to expand...

Where can we see these blown up on a screen where the real difference is present???

OK, here we go on the challenge: from the web (hard to tell for sure on low res) it looks as if the opening 2 shots are definitely Epic/RED as there is no moire in the shots on the lake and the image is super clean, the next few camping shots look very DSLR so I can't tell if that is compression or lower quality equipment (dslr), Wide rapid shot looks Epic/RED for clarity , close up rapid shots look dslr , log rollers look DSLR , first train shot looks EPIC/RED, but the next few look worse quality , faces are completely blown out artsy look so very hard to tell.
 
Last edited:
Joshua, you should buy me some lunch and then we should go out shooting for a couple of hours. Also, we should get a hold of a nice sharp Super16mm lens(for the 2K shots). We'll do some shots at 4K and 2K. Take the results home, play with them, make informed decision. Cost. Lunch and maybe a lens rental. :-)
 
When I bought my R1, I was considering shooting 2k to save...

That thought held on all the way until the first daay I actually got to playy with the cam and posted some 4k/2k phooty...

Since then:
2k?

What 2k?

That said, 3k is technically good for a nice 1080 downsample.

But 4k is just so much more fun!

And if you wanna compare the FOV/DOF with 7D, you need to shoot 4k...
 
My thought, and hopefully Joshua takes me up on my offer, is that with RED One and probably same for Scarlet:

High Speed above 60fps - 2K mode
Need to save on drive space and will create 1080P masters from R3Ds and never go back to them - 3K (benefit from some higher fps as well)
Doc and TV stuff - 4KHD (RC28, 36, and 42) or 4K 16:9
Cinema - 4K 16:9, 4K 2:1, 4.5K, and Anamorphic
 
Oh wow, I didn't realize you were in Boston, Steve. Cool! There aren't very many of us. Yeah, I'll totally buy you lunch, sounds like fun. I bet Rule has a decent 16mm lens we could try out. Let's hook up after the holidays; I'll PM you.

I'm actually getting pretty frustrated with the DSLRs. I know their limitations (frankly, my limitations as a DP are usually more detrimental to the image :P ), and I feel like I can get pretty good looking footage out of them, but it's sometimes embarrassing to play them back for the client on set, before I've had a chance to tweak them with a bit of sharpening and noise reduction. They invariably go full-screen and the conversation goes something like:

Client: "It's kinda noisy, and not that sharp."
Me: "Well you didn't have the budget for blu-ray quality HD."
Client: "We don't need blu-ray quality, we just want it to look good on the computer."
Me (thinking): "You're looking at it on a 2000-pixel-wide monitor..."

Oy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top