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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Color space for ProRes 422 HQ

Arthur Woo

Arthur Woo

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Hey everyone - I'm exploring ProRes 422 HQ as this will be good enough for some of the productions I'm working with (primarily quick turnaround web based projects). Capturing on Epic-W.

What color space should be used here? Assuming they have someone who can apply color correction, is it preferable to capture in Redlogfilm? Is it possible like in other cameras (Alexa, Sony, etc) to record in log and output the RED monitor to rec709? Since I'm not shooting raw, I'm wondering if there's any advantage for those working on the footage in post to be recording in log if not a lot is going on in the color suite.
 
Personally, I think the Prores should DEF be log. If color is baked in, it will be very hard to correct or adjust later. In particular if its 422 HQ.
 
Nick Morrison said:
Personally, I think the Prores should DEF be log. If color is baked in, it will be very hard to correct or adjust later. In particular if its 422 HQ.
Click to expand...

Thanks Nick!

On another note I'm looking at some tests where we recorded rec709 on prores 422 hq. I went a few stops over exposure for day exterior to almost clip the sky. To my surprise, with a slightly aggressive curve, the sky detail can be retained! I'm pretty amazed so far.
 
Prores 422HQ is 10 bit so for really aggressive grades I imagine log might not make use of the bit depth as well as rec709? But you had better like your exposure, contrast and color temperature.
 
Anton Shavlik said:
Prores 422HQ is 10 bit so for really aggressive grades I imagine log might not make use of the bit depth as well as rec709? But you had better like your exposure, contrast and color temperature.
Click to expand...

Log would still be more gradeable than Rec709 no?
 
Yep. I'm not a professional colorist, but I know keys are sometimes hard to pull from 8bit log, so I imagine for green screen or heavy grades that might still apply in 10bit.
 
Anton Shavlik said:
Prores 422HQ is 10 bit so for really aggressive grades I imagine log might not make use of the bit depth as well as rec709? But you had better like your exposure, contrast and color temperature.
Click to expand...

Essentially every broadcast show shooting on Alexa is recording LogC using Prores, whether its 422 or 444, and has been for at least 6 years now. And some of them have gotten what you might characterize as "very agressive" grading. There's theory and reality. Theory is often based on fear. Reality is that most of what you seem to be referring to is not significant.
 
I suggest you ask the colorist what they prefer to work with. Log encoding does pack more discrete code values into however many bits you have. Rec709 can simplify workflows and makes sense for some pipelines. That said, it's truncated color gamut and display biased gamma curve is not the starting point most colorists would prefer.

Cheers - #19
 
Anton Shavlik said:
Yep. I'm not a professional colorist, but I know keys are sometimes hard to pull from 8bit log, so I imagine for green screen or heavy grades that might still apply in 10bit.
Click to expand...

I personally think he should shoot Prores 2K 4444 LOG, like an Alexa - that should be SUPER gradeable.
 
Log is defiantly the way to go more DR baked in as well. And also be aware of highlights (especially blue and red) with the helium. These can't be recovered even if you shoot REDlog Prores. Only way atm is shoot raw and then work with RWG.

Also for your question under monitor (in the settings menu) you can select a graded image DC2 as example on the monitor and still have Redlogfilm for your histogram (it will show RLF) and traffic lights (and record obviously), but be aware it seems like the Helium sensor science hasn't caught up with the monitoring tools neither (this is a subjective impression I got, especially shooting artificial blue blown out highlights).

Apart from that yes the DSMC2 line is a great camera even just for shooting Prores and the only downside to other solutions (a7 series with atomos etc.) is the consumption of battery. But with DSMC2 you got a reliable production tool that doesn't have unreliable hdmi cables hanging around.
 
Arthur Woo said:
Hey everyone - I'm exploring ProRes 422 HQ as this will be good enough for some of the productions I'm working with (primarily quick turnaround web based projects). Capturing on Epic-W.

What color space should be used here? Assuming they have someone who can apply color correction, is it preferable to capture in Redlogfilm? Is it possible like in other cameras (Alexa, Sony, etc) to record in log and output the RED monitor to rec709? Since I'm not shooting raw, I'm wondering if there's any advantage for those working on the footage in post to be recording in log if not a lot is going on in the color suite.
Click to expand...

I'm interested in doing the same thing as I'm going to use my Scarlet-W as a B-Camera along with an Alexa Mini that a friend owns. We're shooting everything 2k ProResHQ Log on the Mini so might as well do the same with the Scarlet. Did you ever figure out a way to view Rec709 while recording Log to ProRes?
 
Yep. You can.
You have to set the camera to record either RedLogFilm or you could use LOG3G10. Color space i would recomend using RedWideGammut, since it's the less saturated option and it'll give a lot of room to work for the colorist.

The you set the video output to be graded as you like.

The only problem is that you'll see the camera playbacks also in LOG
That's also the problem with people working with the IPP2 Preset on camera.
 
Martin Facci said:
Yep. You can. You have to set the camera to record either RedLogFilm or you could use LOG3G10. Color space i would recomend using RedWideGammut, since it's the less saturated option and it'll give a lot of room to work for the colorist.
Click to expand...
I would do a test first, I would ask the colorist or post house for input, and I would also shoot color charts with known standards (like the DSC Chroma DuMonde).

I would also do A/B comparisons at different settings and see what works best for your specific shooting circumstance. I don't think the new settings are necessarily a gigantic or massive improvement than what's gone down before. I don't doubt they're different.
 
M Most said:
Essentially every broadcast show shooting on Alexa is recording LogC using Prores, whether its 422 or 444, and has been for at least 6 years now. And some of them have gotten what you might characterize as "very agressive" grading. There's theory and reality. Theory is often based on fear. Reality is that most of what you seem to be referring to is not significant.
Click to expand...

12 bit Prores 444 is practically a standard with Alexas and it is not uncommon to stick with first iteration instead of highest quality XQ, but 10 bit Prores is not designed for high DR compression log mapping and the image falls apart and looses density sooner. Productions sometimes choose recording codec based on media management preference and workflow practicality with zero consulting with a colorist, consideration of post processes or simply due to different priorities, which does affect the final result. I know you are well aware of this but it is beneficial to bring to attention here.
 
We do a TV series now shot on 3 heliums all cameras was shooting r3d 7:1 and prores proxies and cameras was set to old redgamma and dragon color as the new ipp2 was not even around when the show started to film. The avids digested the prores proxy files.

And now for post finnishing we create r3d trims with 10frames handles, and from those we create RWGRGB 4444 prores UHD files all neatly sorted down in the same r3d folder and one source folder per episode. Then we got resolve to link to the prores 4444 files so the grading goes smooth and we also insert all VFX shots, title sequence etc on a second layer in the resolve timeline.

From this we can render out UHD and HD versions quite rapidly and resolve is snappy working with the 4444 files. Then when all 10 x 60 minute episodes are done we plan to relink to the r3d´s which is as simple as delete the source media in resolve and instead import the r3d´s and render out in 7k just for the heck of it.

As most of our office computers been occupied with other stuff we actually done most of this work on the MacBook pro I´m typing on at the moment and we fit 5 episode of source material with tails and r3d´s and 4444 files on a 8TB raid. We could easily do the grade on this machine aswell but sure the colorist has a more beefy machine to work on but in theory you could without to much hassle make a 7k 10x60minute drama thing on your laptop working in raw. Which I find quite amazing.

To me it´s a bit nuts not to record r3d´s even if you record prores on the side. Disc space is not really that expansive these days and the extra work of handling both files are just the time it takes to move the material. But I guess some productions does not have the patience.
 
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