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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Codec errors...

First off Evolve well said. If anyone should keep their pie hole shut is should be Rob.

Miltos Pilalitos said:
10% you say? Allow me to disagree.

Miltos
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Reliability is king. I am so glad to still be on build 15. Sketchy camera builds are not worth a bump in quality. I would take a 25% downgrade in image quality for rock solid reliability.
 
Finner said:
Reliability is king. I am so glad to still be on build 15. Sketchy camera builds are not worth a bump in quality. I would take a 25% downgrade in image quality for rock solid reliability.
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are you joking? I dont want to accept any drop in image quality...25% is absurd.

I would like to know how many of you are actually having these problems. We are pretty heavy users and have experienced 2 codec errors since installing B16 (w/i an hour of its release). Neither one "crashed the camera", neither one stopped us from shooting. Both times the recording was intact up until the error and we continued on w our production.

I tried to recreate the codec error in the studio last week when Stuart sent us 3.1.6 and was unable to produce one.

The reason I asked if Bruce had a camera was to find out if he actually experienced these codec errors or not. Bruce have you actually experienced a codec error or are you responding to someone Else's experiences?

I am not trying to diminish the importance of eliminating these, I'm just asking if the problem is blown out of proportion or are we just extremely lucky?
 
I am still on 15 so the problems of 16 are only what I have been hearing from many other owners on this board. When the build is out of beta and solid is when I will upgrade.

Mentos, the Red is still a lot better then an EX1 in so many ways even with a 25% image downgrade. The problem is showing a fantastic image in a frame or 1 shot will get projects to use the camera but if it is not stable and has problems that likely will be the last time they use the camera. IMO red should take the step back and create 100 stability and suck up what ever downgrade that means to image. From that point on improve the image with future builds but never at the sacrifice of reliability.
 
We just had a very successfull documentary on German TV where large parts were shot on Red. We didn't have a single codec error during that production using build 15, and you probably can imagine that a docu is shot under far less controlled conditions than a feature.
After that we upgraded to 16 and we have been trying hard to beat it before our next production. Yes, we could provoke a code-error in very rare cases with deliberate over-exposure and very-contrasty high-detail moving objects. Even hard to reproduce a second time.
IMHO, those with frequent codec-errors throughout a normal shooting day have a different problem with their camera and should get it serviced.
So, it counts if you really own a camera to put this problem into proportion. I can see why these problems slipped through alpha, they are so hard to even provoke on our camera that has been working fine all the time.

Regards,

Uli
 
supernovafilms said:
Give it a break guys...
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I most certainly agree... Let's see what the next build 16 revision does for us.

535_1211654489.gif
 
digitalfx said:
are you joking? I dont want to accept any drop in image quality...25% is absurd.

I would like to know how many of you are actually having these problems. We are pretty heavy users and have experienced 2 codec errors since installing B16 (w/i an hour of its release). Neither one "crashed the camera", neither one stopped us from shooting. Both times the recording was intact up until the error and we continued on w our production.

I tried to recreate the codec error in the studio last week when Stuart sent us 3.1.6 and was unable to produce one.

The reason I asked if Bruce had a camera was to find out if he actually experienced these codec errors or not. Bruce have you actually experienced a codec error or are you responding to someone Else's experiences?

I am not trying to diminish the importance of eliminating these, I'm just asking if the problem is blown out of proportion or are we just extremely lucky?
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I had a really hardcore US national commercial shoot with literally every take coming out with codec error after approx 15sec of shooting time. Now it was my own fault for upgrading but I figured a green screen shoot wouldn't be that bad. So YES there are some of us out there and it happens when you the least expect it.

Now Stuart and I are trying to solve those issues and I believe he has the remedy. I will test it in a green screen studio on tuesday.

I would like to throw in a request again. Make it so we can disable the codec error alert in any other monitor but the on board ones - it's no good that the client can sit and read those ENORMOUS (that's what they feel like at the time) alerts.

Fredrik Callinggard
 
nomad said:
IMHO, those with frequent codec-errors throughout a normal shooting day have a different problem with their camera and should get it serviced.
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As far as I know Stuart would disagree with you at least when it comes to my camera. Otherwise he wouldn't be so on the case to solve the problems I had.

Now that was a stupid statement.


Fredrik Callinggard
 
facetmedia said:
I agree with Bruce that the codec errors are a big deal. So major that new product announcements whilst undergoing the codec errors is a little disconcerting.
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Obviously, yes... The fact Bruce doesn't own a camera nor ordered one doesn't make him irrelevant...Just the other way round, in some sense. WE have put our money down, true...and I guess we do not feel quite comfortable when it comes to face unpleasant facts.
 
It was always mentioned that 16 is in beta test. Why people is being worried around this built is the "hype" that 16 has. This is in fact all Jim's fault (sorry Jim) because he's pretty good at hyping things up hahahahaha.

The images it gives are great there are a few unexpected things that needs to be ironed out. These are things that only extensive testing can come up it, so unfortunately the way RED works and always has is that the testing is upon us.

The good thing about that is that there's potentially 2000 testers out there, so it will go a lot faster to straighten things out then with just a few cams.


Fredrik
 
While everything has improved dramatically with Build 16, there are still instances of "codec errors". We don't like them. In fact, they are the single focus of the team right now. We believe we know what is causing them and we have a solution. It will take us though the weekend to squash them. Please be patient... we are on it.

Jim
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4UeHWPeOrA&feature=related
 
weirdcrew said:
These are things that only extensive testing can come up it, so unfortunately the way RED works and always has is that the testing is upon us.
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A while ago, the testing has been upon us with Sony's HDW-750, which had quite a different price point…

Things have been different during the mechanical age, but with the high pace of innovation today this seems to be something we'll have to live with. Don't get me wrong: I don't really like to be a beta tester, I'm an artist. But if I don't want to be left behind, I'll have to live with it.

All revolutionaries will carry scars sooner or later, they can call themselves lucky if they don't get killed ;-)

Regards,

Uli
 
As far as I know Bruce, he is a RED believer and connected to reduser since the very first days and what he is saying make sense – on one hand. I have the feeling, that a lot redusers from the very first day of the REDdream begin to loose there passion, patiences and believes – and that will weaken the ground that the RED philosophy depends on. Thats not good at all. So guys, I tell you, why I can't be totally agree with Bruce: My point of view is based on an other background and thinking: RED is the most genious thing I had in hand since my last 30 years of shooting (except to 35mm film). It is genious not only, because most of the time (98%) I have NO problem with it but also, because it is the best picture for the best money you get. The camera is in BETA? OK, the builts are in BETA? Ok. I KNOW, as user, I know, but in a very advanced stage. RED NEVER told something else even if they would LOVE to cut every problem as fast as possible. Everybody knows that and I also knew, that it will take time to make this camera 100% perfect. So why this impatience?

For me RED is perfect right now, because it IS THE ONLY WAY that I can shoot a 35mm picture in ALL of my productions and not just in 20%, when there is enough budget (Switzerland is a rich country but to small for a big film industry and big film budgets).

Compared to other REDusers, who want to rent or work with their camera for other directors or companies, I have an advantage: I have my own production company (with a partner and 3 employees), I am my own chief, hire myself with RED222 as director/cameraman, cut, compose, grade ASO my films by myself – and don't have to worry, that I will fire myself out of a job, if the camera has his bad day (and my clients would never really know if there is a problem or not, because, when there is a problem, I don't show them until the job is done perfect)

AND, in my eyes an other essential thing, why a lot of people don't like the idea, that RED could cause problems: because they aren't familiar at all with the digital technology and come from a quiet save and controlled film background. So it is easier for them to say, RED is not my thing than to loose their face. I work since many years with soft- and hardware. All of them had there bugs and problems even when they were out of BETA. I've learned to live with it and trained over all this years a sensuality for this kind of problems and don't loose my nerves on that (most of the time, hehehe).

When RED will grow in this market, RED has to be perfect in the near future, I totally agree on that with Bruce and I'm convinced that this is also the credo of the RED team, why should they work day and night if not? Until then, let's shoot on a camera which is 98% perfect (I have to say, that I shot a large greenscreen job two days ago with built 16/3.1.6 and had NO codec errors at all) Woodoo? Don't know.
 
Great statement, Daniel, thanks.

Just like me, you are trying to get things into the right proportion. I'm not a fanboy, I had my share of problems with the crappy battery connectors and the equally crappy joystick. Booting problems too. Let alone post when you don't have Scratch.
But I have always been able to work around them, and I have 25 years of experience with digital technology under my belt – and more than that with analog film, where I had my fair share of troubles too. Just different ones.

I doubt that humans will ever create a perfect piece of technology. How? We ourselves aren't perfect. That's why I oppose nuclear power, but I still like our Red One …

Regards,

Uli
 
GFIRob said:
You know, Bruce, if you don't own a camera, or don't have one on order, why don't you pipe down. Nobody that has made that commitment is helped by more hysterical outbursts from people that have not put their money where their mouth is.
Rob Gardner
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Rude. Offensive. Unproductive.

Bruce rocks. Chill.
 
Bruce Allen said:
Nope. My Red # is "I wish!" I have friends who own cameras...
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Pretty lame, Bruce. :angry01: The fact is that Red One works and works very well. I (and many others) had no problems so far whatsoever. I experienced no less than 100% reliability, which is quite remarkable for such a complex product. It also delivers stunning immages. I did have problems with my Sony HDCAM, though and most other Sony owners had nightmares with their cameras. But, the biggest difference is that Red Team acknowledged it and is out there to fix problems quickly. Try Sony...

If you don't have the camera or haven't used it extensively, why don't you wait instead of complaining ahead of a promissed fix that the team is trying to work out on weekend?

If you are trully worried and want to help, why don't you get the camera form your friends, reproduce the problem, copy the log file and upload to Red Team for further investigation?

The problem is not critical (not for me anyway). I have not experienced it myself, ever :innocent: Otherwise, I would do my best to give the Red team as much diagnostic information as possible to assist them in fixing the problem.

Sorry Bruce, but I don't find your approach reasonable or helpful.
 
Nicely said Pawel.

Bruce, do you seriously think that RED needs to be told that the codec should be bullet proof? Duh. Yes, you're a genius for stating the bloody obvious and showing you're smarter than RED.
 
Great post Daniel, to which I agree 100%. Like yourself, I bought the Red camera for my own productions. I shoot a lot of water stuff so the codec errors are potentially a big problem. I've had a few which would make me wary of using the camera for such shoots right now, but I'm confident they will find a solution and this thread is evidence of that. In the meantime I can always go back to shooting 2:1 at 24 or 25fps, same as I did with build 15, where the errors are almost non-existent. The fact that build 16 claimed to have resolved codec errors was a bit misleading, but it also said "beta" and "not for production". I am glad if my log files are helping Stuart get to the bottom of this problem. We have to remember that these guys are learning along the way, just as we are. I don't see how their dedication to the task could be put into question. They have my full support! The whole RED experience was for the adventurous since day one. It still is today and probably still will be for quite a while.
 
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