Codec errors...

[Bruce Allen]

Not adding any additional features, but focussing on debugging those that we have is EXACTLY what is going on here with the Beta Build 16 firmware.

When its debugged it will become a production release.

One big word..."BETA"...hang on in there!!

But production build 15 had codec errors too. Even at 4K 2:1 RedCode 28.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=236410&postcount=31

If this were a beta issue only I would never have said a thing.

Anyway, I will just cross fingers that codec errors are squashed for release builds for 16, 17, 18, etc...

This is a production planning thing for anyone who intends to use any Red product in the future.

When they say the release build 84 for Monstro is ready, what are my chances of an unexpected error happening nonetheless if I upgrade?

The historical correlation of when Red *says* the errors are dead with when the errors actually *are* dead is important for making these evaluations.

When a producer is fuming at you because your upgrade crashed the camera, and you say "look, ever since Build 16 back in 2008, the release builds have been stable. We waited a week and there were no errors reported so we did our best," then you are okay.

If the story is "well, we waited a week, didn't hear of any errors reported and upgraded, even though Red has always been pretty patchy on whether release builds crash or not" then you are in trouble.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Jannard]

Bruce... it would be helpful if you put the problems in context with what works.

Jim

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

One big word..."BETA"...hang on in there!!

I am hanging on... to build 15, which works for me now, except the grumpy LCD for the first 10-30 minutes before the camera gets hot enough. (screen flickers at bottom half when it sees somethings it doesn´t like)

I love the features that RED have enabeled for build 16, and I love this camera (and I am sure my camera loves me back....)

But I will use build 15 for now, untill these problems are resolved.

Anything that spells BETA shouldn´t be used when you can´t afford too loose footage, and I can´t afford that right now.

I think it is essential to tell my customers that they are renting the best digital cinema camera in the world, but that the trade off is some minor bugs (that can easily be worked around), when people fail to inform their clients about this, their impression of the RED can be really bad, and that serves no one of us - in fact it should be avoided at all cost!

I admire all the beta testers for their efforts, and paving the way, with just one camera I can´t afford to be a beta tester right now! (concidering that a downgrade isn´t an option)

LOVE MY RED ONE! Looking forward to the improvements ahead, both in firmware updates, EPIC and the mysterious Monstro... I have followed this since I first read about it on dvinfo.net in december 2005 and it´s done me a whole lot of good! -And my bank account loves the RED as well :red_bandana:

 

[Dj Joofa]

Sorry, Bruce, but with all respect: this is completely incorrect.

No Nomad, Bruce, does have a point. While stuff such as codec etc. may crash once in a while, the amount of errors I see people reporting in Red's product in released builds is not satisfactory. I am giving you my honest opinion as somebody who knows this industry. You can say that it is beta. However, the frequency of such problems is not what one would expect from a product given to public from a technology company.

If you ask me how does Red compare in innovation, I will give high marks, but if you ask about basic quality control and software engineering, then unfortunately not very high.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

everybody was warned before....like with every build.
i like the idea of letting the build to the people and getting an instant real world feedback and then ironing in one week...

hey, if apple would announce that they have a public beta test, then they will collect all the logfiles, then the programer will talk to all beta users on a public forum, then they will iron out everything in one week, i think a lot of people would start to scream, hell yeah, something is happening, and its happening fast.

(just thinking of native r3d support in COLOR...and this way of testing,its better then waiting until november imo)

 

[Bruce Allen]

Bruce... it would be helpful if you put the problems in context with what works.

Jim

What would work for me would be is this:

Release Build 16 has some setups that are guaranteed not to give codec errors. 4K 2:1 24fps RedCode 28 to CF card for sure, hopefully others? After a few weeks' testing in the wild it turns out that in fact, the codec errors really are dead. Unlike Release Build 15, when they were still alive.

Any settings that you guys think has even the slightest chance of going wrong should be color-coded differently / marked with **'s in the camera menus. At the very least have a table of stable vs experimental settings in the manual or a printable quick start guide.

Then when recommending the camera to people who trust me I can simply say "the camera is rock solid if you follow the settings listed in the manual. There are also some ultra-cool experimental modes (the ones with the warning **'s) - they're pretty stable but you may get a codec error once in a blue moon."

That way, trust of Red amongst the most demanding industry people (and future Epic / Monstro customers) builds further.

We'd also get lots less posts on Reduser from irate people saying "I wanna throw the camera out the window blah blah blah" because first thing we could ask was "did you shoot using the stable setup, or the experimental ones?"

If you really want people to shut up, have put a tiny piece of text that says "experimental" show up in the LCD whenever they are on a setup that is not known to be rock solid.

So it is more of a management of client expectations thing than asking you awesome guys at Red to go without sleep.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Stuart English]

Beta Build 16 status

Beta Build 16 status

Great. Glad to hear that. Not sure why they weren't the single focus of the team before.

Quite frankly, because the Alpha level testing didn't indicate codec errors.

Then when we went to Beta testing we got some, so we are obviously focussed on fixing those.

Period, end of story.

 

[Greg M]

Bruce,
Do you own a camera?

 

[Kjetil Haugen]

Bruce... it would be helpful if you put the problems in context with what works.

Jim

I'm with Bruce on this one. We're about to wrap 5 weeks of feature film shooting with Red where we have had codec errors EVERY DAY. I'm not kidding. 4-5 times a day the camera stops mid-take... for 5 weeks. I have read and written on this forum about it but for a while it seemed like RED had taken a no-comment approach to it. No one would answer or comment on anything, for weeks. Great new features and promises of a new care-free build 16 kept the board busy and awaiting.

Release build 15 has been out there for a long time and reports about codec errors have been pooring in. And it's been like everybody just ignored it and pretended it never happened. Not until it happened again to the new build 16 and with the latest "Red has failed me again" thread, did anybody really take notice.

When I have a problem-free day with Red in the field I'll be writing about that great experience. I promise. I wish I could do that more often. But so far... You wouldn't want to be in my shoes trying to explain why trees and leaves shouldn't be photographed because that might upset the codec enough to stop recording...

I'm on build 15 RELEASE. Tired of hearing about beta not being used in the field. Been using a RELEASE build. And the advertisement about this and that movie shooting Red had me convinced that Red was stable enough for a feature film. Maybe what we didn't hear was that those big studio productions had Red next door supplying backup cameras/or whatever support.

Want to know my specs:
4k, 2:1, RC28. Red Drive.

Alot of people not in "codec error hell" are suppressing this. If YOU are not getting these errors does not mean others are not!

I'm really really really glad that RED are now taking this seriously. Just wanted to back up Bruce on his post... It was totally called for!

Looking forward to congratulating the hell out of the Red team when this whole error thing is over. Still a RED disciple!

 

[Stuart English]

Errors and LOG files

Errors and LOG files

If you are experiencing any kind of record error, please extract the camera .LOG file and send it to RED support group.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

I agree with Bruce that the codec errors are a big deal. So major that new product announcements whilst undergoing the codec errors is a little disconcerting. I had the codec errors on Build 15 while shooting a few plants in my backyard. This was on day one of turning on the camera. Needless to say it seems very shaky for production. I have faith that this will be resolved by RED. Simple because if its not... no one serious about their game will want to use this camera. If trees and high contrast scenes are causing this problem.. it would behoove RED to take a few cameras in a rain forest and knock out this problem.

 

[Joel Kaye]

I'll add one last comment. If you are experiencing any kind of record error, please extract the camera .LOG file and send it to RED support group.

Hate to be totally stupid here, but I'm not seeing .LOG files on my RED RAID. How do you extract them?

edit: I see they are created on "unmount media". So if a power down or media removal happens is that .LOG file lost? Or is it hidden on the media or in the R3D files so a future unmount media would create the file?

 

[Stuart English]

LOG files

LOG files

I'm not seeing .LOG files on my RED RAID. How do you extract them?

With the media attached - CF or RED-DRIVE - press the UNDO and EXIT keys; this UNMOUNTS the media and then the camera will write that .LOG file.. You can also press the UNMOUNT key in the MEDIA / MAGAZINE menu.

Wait for the camera to say "O.K to remove" Then extract / detach the media and hook it up to your computer.

ZIP it and e-mail it to RED support if you have any issues, that way we can really understand what the conditions were that you were experiencing...

An issue reported as a "codec" error may not be that at all, that's the advantage of getting the straight scoop from the camera.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Bruce,
Do you own a camera?

Nope. My Red # is "I wish!" I have friends who own cameras and are trying to make money renting them out. I recommended RED to some of them. They haven't been very vocal on Reduser about codec errors but they're plenty vocal to ME.

Problem is, the plum clients with the big bucks for rentals don't want to base a big shoot on a camera that's perceived as less reliable than other options, such as F900 etc. A number of high-end DPs have been burned already and it'll be a little while before they touch it again. No I am not saying names.

Another example: when Seth and I we were trying to decide whether to go RED or F900 for Ringo Starr, we spent 30 seconds on the image quality / price / features part of the decision (RED won hands-down) but a day worrying about whether the RED codec errors would bite us. Ringo was there for a very limited time and if things went wrong it'd be in big career setback-style trouble.

In the end we went with RED and were delighted (no codec faults, and we felt safe thanks to Manny having all the other builds ready to downgrade, plus a HVX200 sitting on the side just in case). But seriously when you are directing the last thing you want to worry about is "oh my god, too many trees in the shot, this sucker's gonna crash".

Look, there should be two stages to this at RED:

1. the algorithm should be designed to avoid a codec error in all cases (what causes it anyway - data rate too high for a few frames? FPGA glitch? Logic error?).

2. if by some crazy chance codec errors get through, Red's QA testers should pick this up during alpha testing. If they didn't, RED needs to hire more QA testers. They're cheap - I mean seriously, get 5 college interns to run around filming stuff in the woods, each using a different combination of frame rate, aspect ratio, red drive / CF card etc.

Again, I am not suggesting that the core team lose sleep over this. I'm not asking it be done in any specific timeframe.

Whoever is doing the main algorithm should take the weekend off and come back and see if they can figure out a way to compress things that puts the avoidance of codec errors as highest priority. Because it is ultimately the most important thing - again, a 10% decrease in image quality would be worth it for an algorithm that is rock solid and guarantees no codec errors.

And RED should only release the "Release" build when they have figured it out. Or else people will build up extreme distrust of Release builds. This is already happening now. Having a camera with a reputation of "always in Beta" is infinitely better to having a camera that is "released but unreliable".

This is about laying groundwork and establishing reputation for the next 10 years of cameras and for the Red fans who support and use them.

Okay, gotta go - late for 4 July party. Happy America! Great country, well done guys you rock.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Rob Gardner]

You know, Bruce, if you don't own a camera, or don't have one on order, why don't you pipe down. Nobody that has made that commitment is helped by more hysterical outbursts from people that have not put their money where their mouth is. Why don't we back off and find out what happens with this next phase of work? Give it a rest...
Rob Gardner

 

[Miltos Pilalitos]

again, a 10% decrease in image quality would be worth it

10% you say? Allow me to disagree.

Miltos

 

[Prem Edpuganti]

I really don't see any point in announcing new recording modes, products, etc if it is not fixed. This indicates misplaced priorities and is actually very worrying.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bruce, how could you do this. With all due respect to Jannard and his monumental achievements, my thoughts all along. I am simply hesitant to post any criticism, even constructive, on this site. Any one that questions whether you own the camera is missing the point. Valuable criticism whether it comes from camera owners, or others that know the technology must be appreciated, because it can only help the camera get better.

Sixteen builds and many versions of each just in one year, and no stability is worrisome. It simply indicates a rush to release before sufficient testing. Camera reliability seems to follow the same trend.

The most urgent things for Red in my view: Stability of the codec, reliability of the camera and a standard, perhaps more affordable workflow.

 

[Poi Boy]

I feel like such a wimp ! I haven't had many codec errors. I'm still on B15 because I'm in the middle of a 10 minute piece and I have stuck to 4k 2:1 36. I really don't see long term repercussions for red because of this issue simply because they respond quickly, deliver a great image and are the most bang for the buck or whatever currency you choose. It is still early in the game and I look forward to the next build but I wouldn't consider any other system for my productions.
( keep in mind that I'm in the middle of the Pacific and have a backup camera. )
Aloha
-A

 

[Anthony Gratl]

You know, Bruce, if you don't own a camera, or don't have one on order, why don't you pipe down. Nobody that has made that commitment is helped by more hysterical outbursts from people that have not put their money where their mouth is. Why don't we back off and find out what happens with this next phase of work? Give it a rest...
Rob Gardner

You don't know what your talking about Rob. Bruce is right on the heart of the problem, and he doesn't need to own a red to speak his mind. And he's certainly not hysterical. He's correctly pointing out that Red's future success in the industry depends on eliminating this 'codec errors' problem. This needs to be done through the implementation of a rigorous testing program, in combination with a little less hype before a build is about to be released. Expectation levels seem to be way higher than the working builds. Not good. So Bruce is totally right to make the points he's making. This is build 16 not build 3. This cycle needs to change, and it needs to change quickly. Competition will be at the door soon, and Red cannot afford to have these 'codec errors' and the industry chatter that they create, continue like this.
And frankly, Bruce's contributions on this site have always been above board, and with the best of intentions and contributions to the betterment of red.
So why don't you zip it, and let the people who are actually contributing to this very important discussion continue to do so.
Thanks

 

[Anthony Gratl]

10% you say? Allow me to disagree.

Miltos

I agree with Miltos. No image decrease. Just stable codec with rigorous testing before release...