Cineform 4K solution?

[David Newman]

1) While you can do a trial now of Prospect 2K, you can't really test the 4K workflow until Redcine is out.

2) Yes you can use CineForm files as a proxy for your 4K masters, however the link back is an NLE function, we don't add or subtract anything from this workflow, we generally find it unnecessary.

 

[laguun]

1) While you can do a trial now of Prospect 2K, you can't really test the 4K workflow until Redcine is out.

understood.

2) Yes you can use CineForm files as a proxy for your 4K masters, however the link back is an NLE function, we don't add or subtract anything from this workflow, we generally find it unnecessary.

Would Adobe Premiere CS3 support this? That would be excellent then. CF & matchback to uncompressed would be outstanding and solve many problems for us.

 

[laguun]

sorry, i forgot two more questions:
1) HD-SDI monitoring in 24p/25p works, with Koona done, blackmagic decklink in the works, did i understand that correctly?
2) I could edit with the smaller CF in HD @ 709 and then switch back to the 4k uncompressed RGB?

 

[David Newman]

The issue with uncompressed in Premiere, is it doesn't come with a DPX importer (although one can be added), most the other uncompressed still importers are 8-bit. One reason AE is used in DV Rebel's Guide. This is a little outside on our workflow, so I haven't pursue it, but it can be done. However, all that work for no visible again (really), it seems a waste to me. Remember, your sources are more compressed than CineForm file will be, so CineForm is already a bump up in datarate (hardly a proxy), so why even produce uncompressed files?

1) Yes, we support the AJA Xena cards HS, LH and LHe. We aren't currently working on Decklink, but we may in the future.

2) Yes, but I wouldn't Uncompressed 4K RGB is 800+MB/s. However you could have a folder of 1080p 4:2:2 CineForm files as proxies for CineForm 4:4:4 4K files, which would use on average 100MB/s. That is 8:1 saving, with very high performance, given the bandwidth requirements for 1080p proxies will be only 12-15MB/s.

 

[laguun]

The issue with uncompressed in Premiere, is it doesn't come with a DPX importer (although one can be added), most the other uncompressed still importers are 8-bit.

Yes, its tiff to be used iirc.

As this is a little outside on our workflow, I haven't pursue it, but it can be done. However, all that work for no visible again, it seems a waste to me. Remember your source are more compressed than CineForm file will be, so CineForm is already a big up in datarate (hardly a proxy), so why every produce uncompressed files?

true - but two problems - main problem is those nasty multistage vfx, and that several layers of datareductions stack up - in this case redcode->cf->j2k dci.

1) Yes, we support the AJA Xena cards HS, LH and LHe. We aren't currently working on Decklink, but we may in the future.

great - and they show 24/25p?

2) Yes, but I wouldn't Uncompressed 4K RGB is 800+MB/s. However you could have a folder of 1080p 4:2:2 CineForm files as proxies for CineForm 4:4:4 4K files, which would use on average 100MB/s. That is 8:1 saving, with very high performance, give the bandwidth requirements for 1080p proxies will be only 12-15MB/s.

i understand. really good concept.
sorry, one more question - you guys need the GPU for your functionality? or, to be more precise - http://www.iridas.com/, would speedgrade be compatible? both together, especially speedgrade and CF on a notebook would be an excellent combination.

 

[David Newman]

1) true - but two problems - main problem is those nasty multistage vfx, and that several layers of datareductions stack up - in this case redcode->cf->j2k dci.

2) great - and they show 24/25p?

3) sorry, one more question - you guys need the GPU for your functionality? or, to be more precise - http://www.iridas.com/, would speedgrade be compatible? both together, especially speedgrade and CF on a notebook would be an excellent combination.

1) Honestly this is not an issue, you think it might be, but we've been doing this for years. If you go from 12:1 Redcode RAW to 6:1 CineForm 444 to 25:1 DCI 4K J2K, guess which compression stage you will never see. We have pushed CineForm through VFX projects, with multiple rendering stages without issue. Download NEO 2K and start pushing it, and you will see that is holds up.

Note: The workflow is Wavelet RAW, to Wavelet 444 RGB to Wavelet 444 XYZ, wavelet to wavelet concatenation is highly preferred, even if we were much more heavily compressed. For Dust to Glory, we had 35mm scans and HDCAM sources, edited at 15MB/s CineForm Intermediate, with up to 7 generations of rendering of effects and color work, output to a wavelet QVis server, recorded to film, you see no artifics in the beautiful filmout.

2) Yes, 23.976PsF, 24PsF and 25P are fully supported.

3) We don't use or need the GPU at all, leaving that for other third party additions. If you using SpeedGrade, you with have check with their requirements. Note: SpeedGrade is being enhanced to natively work will all CineForm media (4:2:2, 4:4:4 and RAW), so again you can avoid uncompressed.

 

[laguun]

1) Honestly this is not an issue, you other think it might be, we've been doing this for years. If you go from 12:1 Redcode RAW to 6:1 CineForm 444 to 25:1 DCI 4K J2K, guess which compression stage you never see. We have pushed CineForm through VFX projects, with multiple rendering stages without issue. Download NEO 2K and start pushing it, and you will see.

I will do - pardon an oldschool vfx guy like me being sceptical against any compression, i have been living with hdcam and hdcam sr - i will gladly live with redcode and cineform - i just have to understand how much certain things (tracking, green/bluebox) will be more complicated.

2) Yes, 23.976PsF, 24PsF and 25P are fully supported.

very good.

3) We don't use or need the GPU at all, leaving that for other third party additions. If you using SpeedGrade, you with have check with their requirements. Note: SpeedGrade is being enhanced to natively work will all CineForm media (4:2:2, 4:4:4 and RAW), so again you can avoid uncompressed.

now things are getting -really- interesting. speedgrade might be bought by us pretty soon. Do you have any idea of the ETA of speedgrade/CF or is that asked to much?

 

[David Newman]

I will do - pardon an oldschool vfx guy like me being sceptical against any compression, i have been living with hdcam and hdcam sr - i will gladly live with redcode and cineform - i just have to understand how much certain things (tracking, green/bluebox) will be more complicated.

We are less compressed than HDCAM-SR in a next to top setting, you can go higher if you need. My blog has lots of info on this : http://cineform.blogspot.com

now things are getting -really- interesting. speedgrade might be bought by us pretty soon. Do you have any idea of the ETA of speedgrade/CF or is that asked to much?

They are working on it now, but I don't know their ETA, but is well on it way (and those guys are fast.)

 

[Mr. Paul White]

You stilll have to consider the reduced performance CPU and disk performance of a laptop, however CineForm compression does make it much more workable.

Now to dummies, workable enough to 4k online editing, color correction, grading, etc on that quad-core CPU laptop?

Is the 7200rpm performer enough?

 

[Mike McCarthy]

sorry, one more question - you guys need the GPU for your functionality? or, to be more precise - http://www.iridas.com/, would speedgrade be compatible? both together, especially speedgrade and CF on a notebook would be an excellent combination.

We have Speedgrade, but I don't know whether it will run on a notebook. The program is written specifically to take advantage of the power of Nvidia's QuadroFX 4500 and 5500 GPUs. The render engine can be used without them, but I believe you will get no realtime preview. The best mobile Quadro GPU is the 3500M, but I can't comment on if that would be supported for computer display previews in realtime, because I have no idea. We use the FX5500 with the SDI option. (For 10 bit color)
As far as Cineform compatibility with Speedgrade, it is just getting there now. Iridas is still working on improving performance with compressed files. We currently get dropped frames with Cineform files at higher bit rates, but low compression settings work in realtime at 1080p24 on our system. We are currently using Speedgrade to color a feature film conformed with Cineform ProspectHD.
We are using a 4-core Opteron system, so dual Intel 5300 CPUs might be enough to get you realtime performance, and as the software continues to be optimized, I can imagine Prospect2K 4:4:4 files working in realtime in a few weeks on an ultra high end system.

No comment on 4K, that is David Newman's territory.

 

[laguun]

Hello MacCartnyTech,

We have Speedgrade, but I don't know whether it will run on a notebook. The program is written specifically to take advantage of the power of Nvidia's QuadroFX 4500 and 5500 GPUs. The render engine can be used without them, but I believe you will get no realtime preview. The best mobile Quadro GPU is the 3500M, but I can't comment on if that would be supported for computer display previews in realtime, because I have no idea.

Patrick had speedgrade running on his notebook IBC 2006 - but i think it was for demonstration purposes.

As far as Cineform compatibility with Speedgrade, it is just getting there now. Iridas is still working on improving performance with compressed files. We currently get dropped frames with Cineform files at higher bit rates, but low compression settings work in realtime at 1080p24 on our system. We are currently using Speedgrade to color a feature film conformed with Cineform ProspectHD.

To understand - you can switch between proxy and master in speedgrade, even between lets say cineform and uncompressed?

 

[David Newman]

Now to dummies, workable enough to 4k online editing, color correction, grading, etc on that quad-core CPU laptop?

Is the 7200rpm performer enough?

CineForm RAW averages around 35-40MB/s, although it might be a tad lower for Redcode sources, but higher than 27MB/s. This is faster than a single 7200rpm laptop drive, so you need a RAID 0 in your laptop, that is quite doable these days. A laptop would not be about to handle 4K CineForm 444, but the same RAID will handle 444 2K.

 

[Rocket]

Well, I'm definitely going to keep my eye on the Cineform workflow. It seems to me that again it comes down to the end application, resources and user preference.

By November we'll have our Scratch configured with the necessary modules for a full conform and grade, and we've got a RAID array capable of delivering 500GB/sec+, which gets us 2K no probs, so for us, we set up for uncompressed from the get-go. With the addition of a Brightdrive4K SAN, we'll have 1.3GB/sec sustained.

This does have me wondering whether it's all worth it if 4K cineform 444 is as good as it sounds.

For others not wanting to or not able to invest in uncompressed capable hardware, it doesn't make sense, so a compressed workflow (and that has to be Cineform after using it myself) is going to be a better option. For those wanting to finish on a laptop, it's the only option.

Rich

 

[Gordon Prince]

CineForm RAW averages around 35-40MB/s, although it might be a tad lower for Redcode sources, but higher than 27MB/s. This is faster than a single 7200rpm laptop drive, so you need a RAID 0 in your laptop, that is quite doable these days. A laptop would not be about to handle 4K CineForm 444, but the same RAID will handle 444 2K.

Having RAID 0:

http://www.sagernotebook.com/product_customed.php?pid=74&action=customize

Can a quad-core part like the Intel® Core™ 2 Extreme Processor X6800 / 4MB L2 Cache, 2.93 GHz, 1066MHz FSB (with RAID 1 or RAID 0 or RAID 5) be enough for 4k online editing and color correction?

 

[Mr. Paul White]

If so, what's the difference among them? What's the best? RAID 1, RAID 0 or RAID 5 ?

 

[David Newman]

RAID 0 - "Scary RAID" - fastest mode, but if one drive goes all the data is lost.
RAID 1 - mirrored, no speed agains, good data protection, no good for video work.
RAID 5 - Some speed improvement and data protection. If one drive dies, replace it, and the raid can rebuild itself with all the data intact. Rebuild take ages, but at last you get you data back. But for a laptop RAID 5 might not be fast enough (it is better with desktop drives.)

Go with RAID 0, and backup to externals regularly.

 

[Don King]

Having RAID 0:

http://www.sagernotebook.com/product_customed.php?pid=74&action=customize

Can a quad-core part like the Intel® Core™ 2 Extreme Processor X6800 / 4MB L2 Cache, 2.93 GHz, 1066MHz FSB (with RAID 1 or RAID 0 or RAID 5) be enough for 4k online editing and color correction?

Yes, that's the point. Then, with RAID 0. Do you have answer to the Gordon's doubt? Mine too.

 

[David Newman]

Sorry the answer is yes on the laptop, I thought we had already covered that earlier in the thread. If you can sustain say 45MB/s through the disk system, you should be fine, and the quad core CPU are excellent. The only issue is the design for color correction, and that can be addressed through calibration and/or external monitors.

 

[Don King]

If you can sustain say 45MB/s through the disk system, you should be fine

And is it possible to get it here on this link left by Gordon?

http://www.sagernotebook.com/product_customed.php?pid=14886

 

[David Newman]

Yes, particular with 7200rpm drives. Put in all three drives, one for system and audio data (conformed), and two others in RAID-0 video. The laptop is basically a luggable workstation.