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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cineform 4K solution?

penfever said:
David -

Do you have any recommendations for hardware PCIe cards (Aja Xena et al) for a Cineform/Premiere workflow? i want to maximize the amount of things I can do in RT, preferably across multiple apps.
Click to expand...

We really like the AJA Xena LHe, in the future we will be adding support for the Xena 2K.
 
REDCODE bypass out of HD-SDI

REDCODE bypass out of HD-SDI

David,

Sorry if this has been discused before on the thread, but, why convert into Cineform from Redcode, won't that be a compromise? Would it be possible to go direct into Cineform out of the RED HD-SDI outputs? Seeing as Cineform and Redcode are actually based on different principles/concepts, it feels like once a comparison can be made, one of the two codecs could be "better" (using the term loosely) than the other. If Cineform turns out to provide a more effective compression than Redcode, why not go directly into it? without taking anything away from RED and all the amazing job they've done, wavelet compression is one area where I don't see how they could come up with something substantially better, if at all, than say, Cineform, which has been perfecting that science for many years now...Of course, all this becomes a moot point until both codecs can be compaired but it would certainly be good to have the option of recording straight into Cineform from uncompressed for those of us who will go the Adobe way.

Rudi Herbert
 
David Newman said:
We really like the AJA Xena LHe, in the future we will be adding support for the Xena 2K.
Click to expand...
But even with the most powerful laptop, we can't guarantee the use of this type of gear, correct? Is it even necessary? Can the laptop get Real Time?
 
Assuming that the HD-SDI ports on the Red are fully functional and full quality, this would be possible, and would skip the RedCode compression. The BIG downside is that is downrezes the content to 1080p right off the bat. In the future SDI 3G will allow you to captre 2K over SDI, but only if the Red supports it. The only way to go directly to Cineform 4K would have to involve the 10Gb fibre port that is supposed to be available on the Red. And it would have to go into some future highend box that can encode Cineform4K in real time, which doesn't exist yet. The Redcode to Cineform conversion shouldlose very little data, and will be a nice clean and simple workflow, once they RedAlert supports Cineform, or Cineform's HDLink supports Redcode.
 
Don King said:
But even with the most powerful laptop, we can't guarantee the use of this type of gear, correct? Is it even necessary? Can the laptop get Real Time?
Click to expand...

It is very difficult to get SDI preview or layback out of a laptop. There are external boxes with PCIe slots that connect via ExpessCard, but that is a new and untested techology, and begins to defeat the purpose of having a portable station.
The AJA card is not about increasing real time performance, it is to give you a dedicated preview monitor without taking up VGA port and processing time. You can dedicate the secondary output of your graphic card as a full screen video preview, but now you are only editing on one monitor.
The AJA card should have little to no effect on the realtime performance on a PC. To answer your question, yes, the laptop can get realtime.
 
McCarthyTech is correct, for external 4K recording you need something like the RAW port. However, the RAW port is unnecessary as dual HDSDI in HSDL mode can transmit 4096x2160 in 10-log uncompressed with some very simple firmware upgrade to the RED camera, much all the frame rates of the internal features (up to 30p, RAW port is only needed for 4K 60p.) This is how the Arri D20 transmits RAW data. This would have interesting market implications, not only would it simplify the support of third party capture devices, making Red an open image acquisition platform, it would also be possible to allow existing dual-link devices like S-2 and HDCAM-SR to capture a 4K stream WITHOUT modification (decks in RGBA 10-bit mode.) This is important for high-end film projects that require on-site data redundancy for insurance purposes, increasing the market for Red.

I put the idea out for all to use. :)
 
David, you rock again!

pirate-smile.gif
 
David Newman said:
However, the RAW port is unnecessary as dual HDSDI in HSDL mode can transmit 4096x2160 in 10-log uncompressed with some very simple firmware upgrade to the RED camera, much all the frame rates of the internal features (up to 30p, RAW port is only needed for 4K 60p.) This is how the Arri D20 transmits RAW data.
Click to expand...

Except that you're not talking about raw data. You're talking about 10 bit log uncompressed, which would be RGB. It is very unlikely that Red (or anyone else) will do this any time soon with a full quality debayer in real time. And certainly not with a "simple firmware upgrade."

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, and what you're really talking about is using HSDL as a data transport for Raw data.
 
mmost said:
Except that you're not talking about raw data. You're talking about 10 bit log uncompressed, which would be RGB. It is very unlikely that Red (or anyone else) will do this any time soon with a full quality debayer in real time. And certainly not with a "simple firmware upgrade."

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, and what you're really talking about is using HSDL as a data transport for Raw data.
Click to expand...

You can see that HSDL can do it, correct? Then the new trick is use the RGBA transfer mode and pack the RGGB data where RGBA pixel data would have gone. Bayer 4096x2160 can also be "seen" as four primaries of 2048x1080, and the exactly the same as RGBA over Dual Link. This is even viewable when played back from the dual deck as 2K with weird color, yet the deck needs no modification. It is also a lot less work in the camera to output sensor native RGGB, than to debayer to a corrected RGB(A), this why the camera's firmware impacts are minor. This data can be captured into a bayer aware NLE, or something with Redcine+, and simply reordered back into the 4096x2160 bayer image. Demosaicing this data is identical to that of uncompressed RAW, or decompressed Redcode, yet if you are using HDCAM-SR you are compressing RAW at 440Mb/s (optionally 880Mb/s) vs 216Mb/s (27MB/s Redcode) so it is a very nice backup. Now you can insure full res 4K captures with data redundancy.
 
I've been changing very interesting information with others via PM. I think it would be better to share with others here.

1) With a laptop, I can't go with an AJA card, but will it be even necessary? Any workaround?

2) I can't know Cineform since I have no appropriate hardware. I'm thinking to buy just for and after the Red experience. If it is possible going with 4k, first with the workflow in 1k or 2k and only later 4k, how many long could be for a work of 50 minutes, for example? I do not refer the creative hours, only the computer processing time.

3) From his experience, digitalfx has found AE very weak. Here's another interesting tip:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2235#post2235

Colorista could be another solution. Color Finess another one? Can anyone of these three support 4k?

Thanks.
 
Don King said:
I've been changing very interesting information with others via PM. I think it would be better to share with others here.

1) With a laptop, I can't go with an AJA card, but will it be even necessary? Any workaround?

http://www.magma.com/

This solution allows you to use AJA, blackmagic and other cards on a laptop.
Click to expand...
 
David Newman said:
I'm saying it is NOT impossible. Saying anything is impossible is pretty sort sighted these days. Laptops can have the performance, the disk space, the disk speed if configured correctly. Yes, an external calibrated display is highly recommended, maybe even required.
Click to expand...
David,

Can this help?

www.xrite.com/documents/literature/en/985629_i1_Monitor_Solutions_en.pdf

It does include calibration on laptops.

LINK to overview page

Best,
E.

EDIT -- Or this one?

http://www.colorvision.com/product-mc-s2p.php

Laptops included, too.
 
It helps. So, we wouldn't need for an external monitor right?
 
Brilliant idea David and it resolves having to make the choice between having to ditch the CF option if you choose the optical raw output module. You could have both!!!

Did I mention saving the price of the raw port.....aye carumba!!!



David Newman said:
You can see that HSDL can do it, correct? Then the new trick is use the RGBA transfer mode and pack the RGGB data where RGBA pixel data would have gone. Bayer 4096x2160 can also be "seen" as four primaries of 2048x1080, and the exactly the same as RGBA over Dual Link. This is even viewable when played back from the dual deck as 2K with weird color, yet the deck needs no modification. It is also a lot less work in the camera to output sensor native RGGB, than to debayer to a corrected RGB(A), this why the camera's firmware impacts are minor. This data can be captured into a bayer aware NLE, or something with Redcine+, and simply reordered back into the 4096x2160 bayer image. Demosaicing this data is identical to that of uncompressed RAW, or decompressed Redcode, yet if you are using HDCAM-SR you are compressing RAW at 440Mb/s (optionally 880Mb/s) vs 216Mb/s (27MB/s Redcode) so it is a very nice backup. Now you can insure full res 4K captures with data redundancy.
Click to expand...
 
Dean Gough said:
Brilliant idea David and it resolves having to make the choice between having to ditch the CF option if you choose the optical raw output module. You could have both!!!

Did I mention saving the price of the raw port.....aye carumba!!!
Click to expand...

Sadly, it is the last piece that might prevent this from happening. The price for the RAW Port makes it engineering worth while, yet what I propose would make all but 4k @ 60p a free firmware feature of the base camera, yet there are engineering costs to cover (although hugely reduced.) I believe tradeoff is the Red camera will gain even more traction with the more conservative cinematography crowd by working tightly with existing dual-link equipement yet still capturing the full 4K.
 
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