Censorship on the "RED Komodo Uses" facebook group

[Aaron Lochert]

Tomasz is actually defending Komodo in the other forum a couple of days ago when everyone is bashing the camera. See my screen capture below.

Uh... he's bashing a member of the community in the same breath, is he not?

 

[Darius Lyles]

I don’t even have a fb account it’s a cesspool in fact I am conflicted by IG because it is owned by fb. It’s a cluttered trash mess on that site.......

 

[Christophe Deshoux]

Exact Andrew.
But what is worrying is that Jarred (or the venerable Phil Holland) seems to follow them…
and indeed, it seems that it is new, with the arrival of the Komodo, even on Redusers we may be threatened with a warning for certain remarks… (however without aggressiveness or questionable words)
I think we must start by no longer following these damned social media groups ... and be content with the forums visited mainly by professionals.

 

[Phil Holland]

Exact ! social media is a disease… a virus !!

Exact Andrew.
But what is worrying is that Jarred (or the venerable Phil Holland) seems to follow them…
and indeed, it seems that it is new, with the arrival of the Komodo, even on Redusers we may be threatened with a warning for certain remarks… (however without aggressiveness or questionable words)
I think we must start by no longer following these damned social media groups ... and be content with the forums visited mainly by professionals.

I can't speak for every person put in a moderation position on a facebook group, web forum, or mailing list; but I do have perspective on the hurdles, demands, and surprises involved from being a mod here and elsewhere since about 2000 or so.

The first thing to identify is that whether you are on Facebook, REDuser, or even a comment section on a news site; all of these things are indeed "Social Media". Sites run by other entities with rules clearly posted or not. Short of creating your own website and airing your thoughts (two which you are eventually moderated by the hosting company and even service provided to a degree), you are sharing your thoughts in other's houses and are asked play by their rules. Censorship (and likely more aptly put curating, moderating, and editing) of content, discussion, and users is always going to be present in web communities run by others. Some certainly overreach. Ideally a balance can be achieved if everybody is well behaved.

I didn't see what exactly went down here regarding the Facebook posts, I was doing stuff in the real world at the time, but whatever the case the whole post was deleted. Somewhere in there somebody was likely offended by something. And the first thing to do in that case is reach out to the moderator or moderators to get to the bottom of it. In this case, it's rather odd posting the complain here as the two world are not related, though the topics and interest overlap as well as often the members.

Here at REDuser it's pretty cut and dry. Generally I'm still astonished that we have a high bar of working professionals visiting and contributing to this forum for so long. Often after some time things taper off due to general community chaos and that has indeed had an impact here, but overall things are very on point. Mostly we are all working professionals and have open discussion and discourse whether we agree with each other (or even like each other) or not. Being an international forum adds a bit of chaos into the mix as cultural differences, morality variances, and other concepts occasionally wildly differ from an individual's unique perspective. However, universally a polite poster is a globally well received contributor and that's the path the success even when expressing criticism or concern.

Moderation is honestly hard work here and other places I am placed in the trusted position. I take a lot of personal pride in this community as well as the filmmaking community as a whole and the task of moderating in a mine field of fake identities, fraudulent sales, spam, various scams, personal attacks, sifting through content that really shouldn't be discussed on a camera/cinematography forum, and occasionally people just going "too far" are all things we try to ward off. I'm doing my best to keep things moving here and it does require a thicker skin than you can imagine, but this particular forum has a wealth of information about cameras, lenses, lighting, and generally cinematography for over a decade. Ideally we should all work to keeping that knowledge base alive and well while respecting each other.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

LOL post deleted again.

Priceless.


:emote_popcorn:

 

[David Rasberry]

Well said Phil.

IMO threads like this are a monumental waste of energy and time. Let’s move on.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I'm sort of baffled by this thread. Facebook, in particular, is not a place you should look for "democracy", or the experience of it.

And Social Media does not guarantee you Freedom of Speech - all these platforms are privately owned.

I'm not saying this is good, but today in 2020 I assume this is understood?

And as others have said, if this really is a problem you can just start your own group.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

The first thing to identify is that whether you are on Facebook, REDuser, or even a comment section on a news site; all of these things are indeed "Social Media".

The exact definition of 'social media' could be argued, but since it's completely irrelevant it might be best not to.

There is however a huge difference to me if the exchange of ideas take place on platforms that focus on "personalities" and their never ending fight over followers and "likes", or if the discussions happens on forums where its the actual product or topic that takes center stage and drives the participation.

And please, explain to me again how, if you have a company with an actual home page and a thriving forum, you would think it's a good idea to soft launch your products under Facebook's wings—a company that has demonstrably proven to completely disregard its users rights and interests and not shy away from even tampering with political campaigns.

I don't even think that Jarred is drip feeding his tidbits under the RED name on Facebook, but rather under his own name, correct?

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

While free speech is tied to the government, private entities will have to deal with the consequences of suppressing certain opinions. They may not be enforceable by law but the public backlash still exposes their hipocracy and hopefully cause public relations damage, undermine their popularity and question their motives. The cesspool of Facebook is the best example how that works. I think that's the intention of the OP. Doing quite well with that all things considered...

 

[Phil Holland]

LOL post deleted again.

To be explicitly clear Hrvoje. You have been previously banned by other mods, you have had many posts deleted by other mods and myself, and there is a certain point where you are taxing the time and temper of each of the mods.

No threats, just a warning on conduct on this board. You are a smart guy and I'm certain inside you somewhere you know how to appropriately interact on a camera forum.

 

[Phil Holland]

on the topic you started

There is a broad gap between what that thread topic was in terms of sharing information, safety guidelines of which our entire industry needs to utilize now, and you convincing people the pandemic wasn't real or something to take precaution about as well as turning it into a political debate, not to mention siding with a couple people "looking to get paid" for a biased insight. Meanwhile calling people idiots when their family members are sick or dying and getting PMs to ban you again at 3am come up.

Or you poking the bear and me deleting your last post at 5am.

Seriously. I know you are smarter than that. And you know there are better places to sling whatever that is out. But perhaps you don't have another outlet for those thoughts. There's many political discussion groups that are better grounds for whatever your perspective is there.

You can twist it back into a favorable perspective on being disruptive, but that's more of a torn gap rather than a line drawn.

 

[Christophe Deshoux]

Phil, I must admit that, for the first time I don't understand your words, your arguments concerning FB… and I think that today it is no longer possible to hope for anything from these groups in which he is no longer possible to express oneself freely.
FB is indefensible and does not stop generating always more disorder and confusion by mixing respectful professional speakers, true enthusiasts, adults ... in front of excited kids and other extremist geeks who never take long to insult you if you don't do not give a lot of compliments to Red ... and it is with the Komodo that everything seems to accelerate.
It is an observation, and it is a fact.
This is only a personal suggestion, but I think that all the regular users of Red products, which we regularly find on Redusers, should now move away from these fucking social media ... FB first.

For Komodo groups, there is a particular and fairly new problem…
You can be threatened by the moderator if you talk about other brands, and if you don't show enough enthusiasm!…
It feels like another era…

But what's going on doesn't deserve debate, not anymore.
I don't have to justify my years of experience or the fact that I like Red cameras to carry on a conversation, without being threatened with eviction every 5 minutes.
For the first time in years, 5 friends and colleagues have just been fired from groups concerning Komodo because he had mentioned Blackmagic and Kinefinity ... simply to develop a constructive discussion ... and not to say that Red is a brand of shit !…

I do not question the interest of the moderators on FB, but there, at this level it is no longer possible.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil, I must admit that, for the first time I don't understand your words, your arguments concerning FB… and I think that today it is no longer possible to hope for anything from these groups in which he is no longer possible to express oneself freely.

The various cinematography and production FB groups have a pretty broad range of moderation from hyper sensitive to likely too relaxed. I'm a mod on a few cinematography and camera groups and mostly what we protect against on FB is spam and fraudulent accounts, which happens literally all the time. Whatever occurred here likely could have been solved "off the air" and I have no idea exactly what transpired. But it's clear somebody took offense to something.

Most of the time people being offended by anything on social media is mostly related to how information is presented. Criticizing an image or camera with "it's crap" versus something a bit more constructive, the latter is usually the way to go. I'm not saying soften the comments, but just communicating a bit better and likely more politely solves most issues really.

Either way, the actual post was deleted it seems as well as all the comments and replies tied to it. In which case, carry on. It's shocking to me that it led to a post here on a forum that has nothing to do with the FB group really outside of the same general interests. It's sort of like yelling at Google because of something wrong with Bing or whatever. Two different worlds.

On REDuser, long ago, we used to not talk about other cameras really as there was a stronger policy in place regarding that, but things became rather relaxed and it seems many topics that normally would be better suited for something like DVXuser have popped up here time to time. I mean, I don't really care where things pop up really as I'm a member of all these boards, but it's interesting to see where and when things overlap. Most people are just looking for questions to get answered, share thoughts or opinions, chat about cinematography related news, etc. Generally with all these groups, forums, lists you have a large community that is pretty dynamic. Most days everybody gets along fine, occasionally a speed bump occurs, and overall the community as a whole knows how to have critical conversations without pissing each other off.

A Facebook group is moderated, but you can express yourself fairly freely by posting to your own timeline or creating alternative groups. A few like Cinematography Insight and Cinematography Saloon are a good example of more recent groups that are focused on more general discussion.

 

[Christophe Deshoux]

I agree with you ... but I remain particularly puzzled regarding FB.
And I just hope that this disease does not spread to Reduser or elsewhere.

 

[John Brawley]

Wow.

A bunch of forum regulars scratching their heads about Facebook groups while thousands of other users who would never post here are busy interacting on FB groups.

You know what I see on most of the camera FB groups I'm a member of ?

Women.

People of color.

I hardly see that on camera forums like this....

I think it's fine to say you don't agree with using FB generally, but it's a bit weak to disparage those that choose to communicate through that platform. I mean, the very fact that that is where the Komodo footage and talk has been says it all.

JB

 

[DJ Meyer]

Wow.

A bunch of forum regulars scratching their heads about Facebook groups while thousands of other users who would never post here are busy interacting on FB groups.

You know what I see on most of the camera FB groups I'm a member of ?

Women.

People of color.

I hardly see that on camera forums like this....

I think it's fine to say you don't agree with using FB generally, but it's a bit weak to disparage those that choose to communicate through that platform. I mean, the very fact that that is where the Komodo footage and talk has been says it all.

JB

How do you know that people posting here are neither women nor people of color?

 

[Adrian Jebef]

How do you know that people posting here are neither women nor people of color?

i saw yer profile pic, dj

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

This thread has reminded me just how lucky we are that RedUser has remained largely on point for 14 years. While some posters have been banned at times, all but the most virulent have been allowed back in. The level of effort required of the moderators to parse out who is genuinely destructive and who is just pushing the envelope is significant. It's a lot easier to just ban anyone who seems to have an agenda, but sometimes the truth is hiding in the weeds.

IAC, big THANK YOU to our RU moderators for their hard work. This community is of great value to my professional development, not to mention providing numerous opportunities to forge relationships with like minded creators.

Cheers - #19

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Wow.

A bunch of forum regulars scratching their heads about Facebook groups while thousands of other users who would never post here are busy interacting on FB groups.

You know what I see on most of the camera FB groups I'm a member of ?

Women.

People of color.

I hardly see that on camera forums like this....

I think it's fine to say you don't agree with using FB generally, but it's a bit weak to disparage those that choose to communicate through that platform. I mean, the very fact that that is where the Komodo footage and talk has been says it all.

JB

Obviously there is something in facebook which has made RED officials officially post there. So what is the point in bashing up people who check facebook groups as amateurs? Having said that, the OP should buy a RED camera if he likes and bear with whatever baggage that comes with it (real or perceived). Else, rent. Or else, buy some other brand.

We artists are a sensitive lot. However, please remember that Life is too big to carry a feeling of being hurt (by someone in a facebook group) and wallowing in that cesspool. Just yesterday a good filmstar in India committed suicide. It is important to ignore certain things and simply move on to live a life we deserve.

PS: I have deleted facebook during the quit facebook movement.

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

I'm sort of baffled by this thread. Facebook, in particular, is not a place you should look for "democracy", or the experience of it.

And Social Media does not guarantee you Freedom of Speech - all these platforms are privately owned.

I'm not saying this is good, but today in 2020 I assume this is understood?

And as others have said, if this really is a problem you can just start your own group.

Lol
Nowhere you get Freedom of Speech. Not here as well. My 2 Komodo posts were deleted by guy with funny logo as he proudly said.. nuked. So get used to it guys, everything is moderated ( censored ) everywhere these days. But good think is, Moderators will be nuked by AIs soon.