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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Canon mount for epic needed

Bill Goehring said:
The real need is for Redmote Pro wireless follow-focus, which will presumably allow for remapping still lens short-throw focus range.
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Tim Lüdin said:
I just say REDMOTE PRO. That's the killer right there.
Tim
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I've kind of been a one-issue guy on this forum, and this has been my most critical consideration from near the beginning.

When the time came to make a final decision on going forward with the R1, it was the prospect of a smart Birger Nikon mount that pushed me to move forward with my purchase. That prospect faded as the smart Birger Canon mount development dragged on and on and as intrigue mounted over ViewFactor issues. When it became clear that moving forward with the still-unavailable Birger Nikon Mount would not be supported by Red and would, in fact, invalidate a stage 3 upgrade path to Epic, I asked Erik to return my deposit, which he happily and quickly did.

But that was okay because another coincidental development was Red's announcement of the Redmote Pro, which promised to fulfill all of the smart Birger Nikon mount functions PLUS the addition of other automatic functions, such as auto-focus and auto-tracking-focus, which, if implemented well, could potentially challenge the dominance of manual/mechanical designs in the cine glass landscape. Further, Red's intention to produce their own line of electronic lenses indicated their dedication to fully implement these features and hybridize still lens electronic functionality with more traditional cine lens performance, e.g. less breathing, holding focus throughout zoom range, more robust build, etc. And, with the wide distribution expected for the Epic-X and Epic-S lines, it is reasonable to assume that other manufacturers, maybe even traditional cine lens manufacturers, would jump into the fray with their own designs, thus beginning an industry-wide move toward cine- quality electronic lens designs.

But this is a big step forward, one that, in my opinion, has not yet been proven and won't be proven until we see the Redmote Pro appear and function as promised with Canon and Nikon lenses first, then later with Red electronic lenses. And, while we have been reassured several times that electronic Canon and Nikon mounts are moving forward, Red has been exceedingly quiet about developments of the Redmote Pro and it's own line of electronic lenses. As a result, I am becoming increasingly doubtful that we will see the Redmote Pro this year or Red electronic lenses next year.

I'd love to be proven wrong on both counts.
 
Remember there will be AF use with the touch screen as well. So I guess they could come out before the Redmote Pro.

Either way I think it is pretty obvious everyone would want the mount right away to get started with manual use. But I think waiting till AF is functional is also obviously something Red decided will be a wise thing to do for Red (and therefor also a benefit to those with large investments in Red products).

They probably want the 'shock and awe' of a pro-grade AF for motion solution to get it's full release impact, and to get properly categorized in the minds of consumers for what the product really is (so much more than a great dumb mount). They probably also want to avoid a thousand beta-type posts. You know a million people will come in asking the same question, over and over: "Is AF working?", to which it will have to be answered a thousand times: "Nope, not just yet, but soon." There wouldn't be a thousand posts after that saying "It is ready now!" cause people will be too busy using it. Google the mount after all of that... So many unsuspecting new users would get discouraged, and probably turn away with no intention to look back till someone hits them over the head with a fully functional titanium mount. :) So the myths begin... This is a VERY important product. Truly revolutionary, within its scope. I think it is nice to see them being protective.

And I bet there is probably only a little bit left to wait... I don't think they could hold themselves otherwise. :)
 
Well said Bill. I've asked 2 times about the Redmote Pro and never got an answer from RED where things are at the moment.
As you said, the Redmote pro could change the cinéglass world in a big way and bring more power to the people that can't afford expensive ciné glass or even rent it all the time.

I've been shooting with the birger canon mount for over a year now and it's realy great as long it is working. I've shot with all ciné glass you can name but the canon still glass (L series) is damn good for it's price. The flares are nice, the lenses are very sharp and from T 2.0 the CA is not bad. So you get a lot of bang for the buck. The great ciné lenses cost around 10 times more than the still glass but they are only a bit better. That's scary sometimes.

So where are we now. We just need a redmote pro that can electronically make the focus throw longer on the still lenses and we have a great system.
The Birger does a good job but RED could make it perfect. I hope they do it quick, so we all can use it on our new epics soon. I don't want to buy Zeiss CP2s only to sell them around 14 months later to buy the new RED electronic lenses. If RED will bring it out fast then most of us will use our Canon or Nikon glass till the new RED electronic ciné lenses are ready. Other wise we will have to spend around 30k on other glass very soon. So RED will loose some potential business right there.

So please RED give it a go and you will change our industry again on the lens side.

Cheers
Tim
 
Oh, I didn't see Bill's post till now. I also agree with you Tim. This 'little mount thing' is not a 'little thing', at all. I never thought of correcting focus for lenses that don't hold while zooming, though that sounds like quite a bit of work on lenses that we would probably avoid anyway, right? Well, regardless, this is wild stuff. That is exactly why I would do things safe and 'slow' if I were Red. You only get one first impression.
 
He Roberto
I heard that the Epic autofocus will be damn good and RED is pretty much done with it. So now the only need a wireless FF that can access the autofocus and they are done. Even if they can only access it via cable at the beginning it would be huge for all of us. The Viewfactor FF is pretty cool, I use it every day. It has it's problems so you have to reboot the FF and the Birger sometimes but that's manageable. RED could make a killer tool here. It's their autofocus system and they know their mount the best so they could pull this of in a big way. I hope they do because the Birger probably wont work on the epic so I'm screwed.

Tim
 
Seems kind of silly to hold back all of the functionality of using Canon electronic lenses until they can do autofocus when we have never had that before with the cine lenses.

There are two big advantages of modern SLR lenses: 1) is that iris and focus motors are built in - don't need external motors and the added size and adjustment - not to mention $10K-20K in cost that come with using external motors. and 2) Cost: Even for something as simple as an 11-16 Tokina - which is excellent glass - you can spend $650 for the stock lens or $4K for a PL conversion. Really high quality Canon ef zooms are $1800 vs. $20K or so for a PL zoom. Sigma 8-16 is about $800 (very high quality picture), next option in PL is Arri 8R for $28,000.

Autofocus is nice, but not an essential option - and the announcement impact when it is ready will be just as great regardless of whether or not it is introduced at the same time as a mount.

So ship it already... :-)
 
Yeah Michael

For you the REDmote Pro will also be killer. Getting all the benefits out of the small still lenses with the super good new RED autofocus in a box like the Epic. Ideal for underwater stuff.
Keep it coming RED.
 
Tim Lüdin said:
I just say REDMOTE PRO. That's the killer right there. Bring it and everybody and I really mean everybody will buy one.
Bring it quick and we all will be in heaven.

Thanks
Tim
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But wouldn't the advanced functionality of the REDMote Pro require the software/firmware of the mounts be operational? :confused1:
 
Terry VerHaar said:
But wouldn't the advanced functionality of the REDMote Pro require the software/firmware of the mounts be operational? :confused1:
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You'd think so. But I'm sure some would be happy to simply have the ability to mount their Canon/Nikon glass to an Epic in a "dumb" configuration, even if that were it's permanent functionality. Not me, but I WOULD be interested in having a smart mount in a temporarily dumb configuration, with the promise of electronic functionality to follow and auto functionality to follow that, even if I had to return the mount to Red to get it done.

Of course, I'd prefer to start off with electronic functionality and happily wait to get auto functionality. But that was the point of my previous post: radio silence on the Redmote Pro indicates to me, especially at this late date, that we're going to have to be satisfied with dumb mount operability at the beginning to be followed by electronic functions with the Redmote Pro to be followed by auto functionality, which I think will mostly be implemented through the touchscreen lcd. Maybe availability of auto functionality through the lcd will come first, with the wireless electronic functionality to follow, since the touch-lcd is already in place and the Redmote Pro is as yet unseen.
 
Bill you are spot on with this. I really hope they can bring on the electronic functionality via Promote sooner than later. Birger on steroids.
Or what about the Birger? Will there be a way to put the Birger Mount on the Epic. To close the wait on the REDmote Pro?

RED could shed some light on this.

Thanks
Tim
 
Tim Lüdin said:
Will there be a way to put the Birger Mount on the Epic. To close the wait on the REDmote Pro?

Thanks
Tim
Click to expand...

My understanding is that the Birger Canon smart mount will not be usable on the Epic.
 
Bill Goehring said:
My understanding is that the Birger Canon smart mount will not be usable on the Epic.
Click to expand...

Why would this be?

From what I saw of the Epic when it was here in February while we made the first underwater housing for Epic, adapting the Birger mount to the Epic will be trivial - since sensor/Flange focal distance is done by adjusting the sensor rather than the mounts it is simply a square mounting plate for the original Birger industrial mount - which is used on a number of cameras. It doesn't require any electrical connection to the camera - it can be controlled and powered completely externally. One of my customers will be using a Birger on the Phantom Flex using our control board in the housing, or with a computer to control from the surface in some applications, and/or an impero knob for regular follow focus work.

I think the RED Canon mount will be the sweet spot for price and performance (and simplicity due to direct attachment to the camera) - particularly when autofocus is done, but there doesn't seem to be much reason not to use the Birger until it's ready.

I'd really like to be able to use the Birger on our Epic-M for our Tiger Shark production in a month or so since Red has said their canon mount isn't ready yet and since our control for Birger is already fully functional and tested over numerous productions in the past three years - but I don't want to get in the middle of a ruckus with RED on these mounts, which is another reason why I asked for some delineation of the rules for other mounts. I had pretty much given up on the idea - but in thinking again, it would really simplify our lives and add a lot to our production capability.
 
Michael Hastings said:
Why would this be?

From what I saw of the Epic when it was here in February while we made the first underwater housing for Epic, adapting the Birger mount to the Epic will be trivial - since sensor/Flange focal distance is done by adjusting the sensor rather than the mounts it is simply a square mounting plate for the original Birger industrial mount - which is used on a number of cameras. It doesn't require any electrical connection to the camera - it can be controlled and powered completely externally. One of my customers will be using a Birger on the Phantom Flex using our control board in the housing, or with a computer to control from the surface in some applications, and/or an impero knob for regular follow focus work.

I think the RED Canon mount will be the sweet spot for price and performance (and simplicity due to direct attachment to the camera) - particularly when autofocus is done, but there doesn't seem to be much reason not to use the Birger until it's ready.

I'd really like to be able to use the Birger on our Epic-M for our Tiger Shark production in a month or so since Red has said their canon mount isn't ready yet and since our control for Birger is already fully functional and tested over numerous productions in the past three years - but I don't want to get in the middle of a ruckus with RED on these mounts, which is another reason why I asked for some delineation of the rules for other mounts. I had pretty much given up on the idea - but in thinking again, it would really simplify our lives and add a lot to our production capability.
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The photographer from South Dakota defers to the esteemed diver from Florida. My flimsy opinion was based on a vague, foggy memory of something I read on the forum long ago, whereas yours is apparently based on first-hand experience.
 
I hope you are right Michael and the Birger will be easy mounted on the new Epic. It would be perfect to use the Birger till the REDmote Pro is ready for the same stuff.
The REDmote Pro will open up an new Universe of possibilities to work light and fast with the Epic.

Hurry up RED

Tim
 
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