Canon 7D looks quite Nice

[Mick Jones]

It's so interesting that there is so much discussion on this forum (and others), essentially comparing the RED and the 7D. They are world's apart scientifically as well as $$$. I think the real debate is about what these two cameras will be used for, and indeed what productions would have been shot on a RED but will now be shot on a 7D? From speaking to other local directors & DOP's it seems that music videos will be a massive market for using the 7D over the RED. I just received my 7D and absolutely love it. The stills are amazing quality with a nice piece of glass on it. I have only dabbled in the video function at the moment, but well impressed so far. Having said that... I still want a Scarlet... if they are actually still going to make them.

 

[David Rasberry]

We are talking about a stills camera here that has a video mode, the still format will leave the Red one for dead in low light and for general resolution.
So I, being a photographer/artist, believe the 7D is better than the Red one if "striving" for the "best" image.
Not having a go at Red at all but that's just the way I see it at present and Scarlet/Epic might change my opinion.

If one is primarily shooting stills one doesn't need a RED. However comparative tests have shown the RED to have superior dynamic range to the 5DII and the 7D is not quite as good in that respect as the 5D. The 5D is somewhat more sensitive, but the 7D I don't think is. Especially with the most recent firmware upgrades to the RED.

RED's great strength is shooting motion raw to resolution and quality levels on par with digital still cameras. The VDSLR's shoot mediocre video.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Barry posted this over on dvxuser....

He put the hmc40 and the 7d side by side and shot some res charts. He used the hmc40 b/c he said it was the only other 1920x1080 cam he had at the moment...

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=186334

OWNED.

This comes as no surprise. After having several important 1080p HD shots on my 5D2 ruined by moiré and other artifacting and aliasing nonsense, this is why I am holding out for a Red DSMC cinema camera. Or until these other camera companies start taking video seriously.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

it's just information... A lot of people seem to be freaking out over it in one way or another... either by getting extremely defensive or by feeling like their hopes and dreams of being the next superstar filmmaker have been crushed...

Just valuable info that folks should use to their advantage so as not to get caught by any surprises... It is after all a 2,000 dollar camera and (like everything else) will undoubtedly have issues that folks need to be aware of, whether they want to or not.

later,
Jason

 

[albert rudnicki]

Can we stop charting... it' s a vicious circle after all.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Maybe we need to talk about what the 7D is. Well, this is just my opinion really, but: The 7D is the camera Canon rushed out in hopes to grab some of the cash sitting in people's pockets before Red released a $3,750 beast.

I don't work for Canon, nor do I think they give a hoot as to what I think, but the 7D sure isn't isn't a camera that Canon put their best into in hopes to compete with Red. Remember, they were slow to react to "the scam".

That camera, be it the new 1D or a completely new camera from their video department using the digital department's CMOS technology and a bunch of other stuff, is NOT out yet... and it WON'T cost $1,700!

If the 7D helps you, buy it, if it doesn't then don't. If you hate that you don't have ISO 1250, don't take it out on Canon's little 7D money making attempt, just be patient. One like that is on the way.

I shot a little thing yesterday when all that was left was a sliver of sun in the horizon. It had some noise, quite a bit of skew, significant stair stepping... even vibration and poor camera operating some may say. It still got a "wow" from everyone that's seen it so far. But unfortunately this sort of trick isn't ready for prime time. Yet!

 

[Paul Leeming]

A new shot, this time graded and passed through DPP from the CR2 into Photoshop to show what a real world shot is supposed to look like (not test chart!).

I've put up a similar shot I took two years ago with my Canon 40D for comparison. Resolution wise it's no contest, but I think noise wise it's also no contest in favour of the 7D. The noise pattern of the 7D is far more controlled and when resized or printed out is almost negligible. Note these are shot at the same ISO 400 and f5.6 on both cameras, but the 40D was 1/30th and the 7D was 1/4000th of a second. Both taken just prior to sunset.

Click on images for full size versions. Please understand, this is NOT a comparison of colour response - I have graded them artistically and not for accuracy.

Canon 7D:



Canon 40D:



HTH

Paul

 

[Ethan Cooper]

Paul - I haven't read all 30 pages of discussion but unless I'm mistaken I think you've missed the point. The test charts aren't about the 7D in still mode, but in video mode.

Nice comparison between the old and new cameras, but that's not what's being discussed here I don't think. Unless of course that 7D still is a frame grab from the video mode.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Interesting how many people are having a negative reaction to the test charts. I think they are not happy with the results, because they have invested their money or their hopes in these vDSLRs. "Shoot your test charts all day, dude, I'm gonna go make a movie!!" :skep:

That's all fine and dandy until the flaws shown by the charts inevitably pop up in their film.

 

[Paul Leeming]

Paul - I haven't read all 30 pages of discussion but unless I'm mistaken I think you've missed the point. The test charts aren't about the 7D in still mode, but in video mode.

Nice comparison between the old and new cameras, but that's not what's being discussed here I don't think. Unless of course that 7D still is a frame grab from the video mode.

Not at all. I agree that the 7D is hardly going to compete with a $20,000+ camera.

I just wanted to point out that while many people want to pan it for being less than a Red, it's still more than capable of stunning still images. As a photographer that's its primary purpose to me.

It just so happens that I can flip a switch and use it to shoot a reasonable approximation of what I can shoot with my Reds, same DoF, same FoV, same base framerates, same lens even (thanks to Birger) for a tenth the price. Video is a bonus to me, nothing more, but as a director's finder it's fine for general use, along with the odd shot that would be difficult to get with a fully loaded Red One (due to permits, space constraints etc).

The right tool for the job is what I'm getting at.

As a movie camera, the 7D has a ton of limitations. But if you understand those limitations and shoot accordingly it can still be another tool to use to get the images you need.

I posted the images because I don't want people to lose sight of the fact that its first purpose is as a high end photo camera, which it does exceptionally well for an APS-C size DSLR.

HTH

Paul

 

[Paul Leeming]

Interesting how many people are having a negative reaction to the test charts. I think they are not happy with the results, because they have invested their money or their hopes in these vDSLRs. "Shoot your test charts all day, dude, I'm gonna go make a movie!!" :skep:

That's all fine and dandy until the flaws shown by the charts inevitably pop up in their film.

Yes, the test charts show this camera for what it is when it comes to video - good in low light but terrible when it comes to resolving detail or using it in a production where quality matters.

Great for shooting a low budget music video where bokeh is king and the output is destined for the web at half or quarter resolution, but not so great for anything critical where you actually need 1920x1080 to look hi def!

Cheers,

Paul

 

[David Twelves]

I saw some footage with Zeiss lenses over on Vimeo:

http://vimeo.com/6859135

LOVE it! I wish it was FF & had better low-light like the 5D, but for $1700 it's hard to go wrong...you get a fabulous still camera with great HD stuff, which has a really easy workflow. I have a D90 right now and I'm very unsatisified with the video aspect of it. I think Canon has really nailed it, at least as far as this first-gen type of stuff goes. Depending on the release date of the Scarlet (hurry up with that annoucement already!!), I may go with a 7D first...you can take it absolutely anywhere and film guerilla-style!

 

[Bryce O]

Ok, let me see if I understand everything correctly. From what I've gathered, all people who shoot on the 7d or 5d are amateurs who don't understand (or care) about image quality and all people who shoot on RED suffer from delusions that their project will have a nation-wide theatrical release? Ok. Cool. I'm glad that's cleared up now.

 

[Mick Jones]

Ok, let me see if I understand everything correctly. From what I've gathered, all people who shoot on the 7d or 5d are amateurs who don't understand (or care) about image quality and all people who shoot on RED suffer from delusions that their project will have a nation-wide theatrical release? Ok. Cool. I'm glad that's cleared up now.

LOL! Absolutely classic! I've been a camera nut for years and until the 5D/7D/RED I have never seen such heated debate with big LOUD voices who know everything about everything bagging out cameras and people's intention behind using them. On many forums as well. I just love photography and shooting video, it's such an exciting time for new imaging tools and rather than getting obsessed with the science of it... I'm enjoying seeing the results of the guys who are actually out there making great images.

I have a 7D and will get a Scarlet too and honestly the scientific evaluation (7D) and the reaction to the test chart "bomb" that was dropped is (in my opinion) a bit overboard for a $1700 camera. The fact that people are actually even considering using a 7D instead of a higher end cam on any shoot speaks more about it's real world capabilities than it's test chart flaws in my opinion.

 

[David Rasberry]

LOL! Absolutely classic! I've been a camera nut for years and until the 5D/7D/RED I have never seen such heated debate with big LOUD voices who know everything about everything bagging out cameras and people's intention behind using them. On many forums as well. I just love photography and shooting video, it's such an exciting time for new imaging tools and rather than getting obsessed with the science of it... I'm enjoying seeing the results of the guys who are actually out there making great images.

I have a 7D and will get a Scarlet too and honestly the scientific evaluation (7D) and the reaction to the test chart "bomb" that was dropped is (in my opinion) a bit overboard for a $1700 camera. The fact that people are actually even considering using a 7D instead of a higher end cam on any shoot speaks more about it's real world capabilities than it's test chart flaws in my opinion.

There is nothing wrong with the Canon's if they are used with reasonable awareness of their limitations on the video side. There is no such thing as a perfect camera. Certainly for the price a 7D offers possibilities that haven't been available before.

 

[Mick Jones]

There is nothing wrong with the Canon's if they are used with reasonable awareness of their limitations on the video side. There is no such thing as a perfect camera. Certainly for the price a 7D offers possibilities that haven't been available before.

I guess I am also amazed because we don't see this kind of mass evaluation of sub $2,000 cameras usually, heck sub $5,000 cameras. To me that straight away says something pretty amazing about the camera. Agreed that it's great to know the limitations. I always read Barry Green's posts and bought his books and think he is a wealth of knowledge. My comment re the res charts is about the reaction to them and subsequent debate... not the tests themselves.

 

[David Rasberry]

I guess I am also amazed because we don't see this kind of mass evaluation of sub $2,000 cameras usually, heck sub $5,000 cameras. To me that straight away says something pretty amazing about the camera. Agreed that it's great to know the limitations. I always read Barry Green's posts and bought his books and think he is a wealth of knowledge. My comment re the res charts is about the reaction to them and subsequent debate... not the tests themselves.

Every flaw that shows on the res charts shows in the video when the shooting style or subject matter exceed the camera's limitations. If one is shooting casually for fun or for the web where such things don't matter very much no problem. A few month's ago a poster on this forum mentioned losing his client $200k using a 5DII on a pro shoot that the camera couldn't handle competently. The footage was unusable.
I get complaints occasionally from corporate execs who think that their 8mbps H.264 1080p HD video conference systems should look as good as Monday Night Football HD broadcast footage. Of course it doesn't. If you shot a football game with a 7D it wouldn't look nearly as good either.
A pro might well shoot the occasional piece with something like a 7D if it was appropriate to subject and the desired end product, but knowing the limitations a pro would not pick the camera for a project that it was clearly unsuited for. Love the camera for the advantages of its large sensor, good low light sensitivity, and 35mm DOF character, but understand it is nearer the bottom of the scale than the top when it comes to HD video quality. Some of Canon's own sub-1k HD handycams exhibit better resolution and fewer artifacts than any of the VDSLR's.

 

[Van Din]

Why so many posts towards the new cameras then?

 

[David Rasberry]

Why so many posts towards the new cameras then?

Because they are new, and novel in their capabilities. At least for my own consideration I have looked very closely at all of them to see if they can serve as a primary HD motion camera for a broad variety of production scenarios. Unfortunately they can't, and so far most of the cameras available that do are well north of $10k in price. Scarlet will I think change that.
So the question becomes do I blow a third of a limited budget on something like the 7D now and put off Scarlet for a year or more, or continue saving that money towards a truly practical higher quality HD/2k field production camera package?
If I seem a little harsh in criticizing these new cams, it may be that I am just trying to resist the temptation.:drool:

 

[Mick Jones]

Some of Canon's own sub-1k HD handycams exhibit better resolution and fewer artifacts than any of the VDSLR's.

Good point David. I am in total agreement with you about the fact that the cams have their flaws. I sometimes shoot RED and I will now sometimes shoot a 7D where I would have normally shot on RED. But I reckon if you showed a client the same scene shot on the higher res handycam that you mentioned (or even an EX1) Vs the 7D they would go for the 7D image. As many have mentioned each job is different and you just go with what is the best tool for the production/budget. Many colleagues and clients are now specifically asking for these cams to be used on productions.