"Burst" mode possible?

[Glen Powell]

Oh how quickly we forget... So how about refreshing our memory with this NAB announcement from 2008:

"Today at NAB, Red Digital Cinema showcased the long-awaited Scarlet, a compact model capable of shooting 3K video for under $3,000. Film and video enthusiasts flooded the show floor, clawing to catch a glimpse of the Scarlet's rectangular upright body and unconventional architecture. The Scarlet is equipped with a new 2/3-inch Mysterium sensor and supports 1-120fps with a 180fps burst mode. The Scarlet can capture video up to 100Mbps in REDCODE Raw format and RGB recording to dual compact flash."

-- peer

I don't think red would have changed the hardware to a lower spec from that version to todays scarlet, so he is saying that if a lower end model does it, the higher end should be able to...

No not really… That 'announcement' was probably for specs that they were hoping to develop - not necessarily for a camera that was complete. It may have been one of the contributing factors to why that version of 'Scarlet' never saw the light of day.

I mean GM was announcing cars in the '60's powered by jet turbines.

 

[Timothy Carr]

No not really… That 'announcement' was probably for specs that they were hoping to develop - not necessarily for a camera that was complete. It may have been one of the contributing factors to why that version of 'Scarlet' never saw the light of day.

I mean GM was announcing cars in the '60's powered by jet turbines.

forgive me if im wrong, but that was a working model. You don't have a working camera if it doesn't have specks

 

[Glen Powell]

forgive me if im wrong, but that was a working model. You don't have a working camera if it doesn't have specks

Was it an actual shooting camera? Or was it an engineering mock-up / prototype? Lot's of cameras are announced with spec's that don't actually make it to the camera when it launches.

I'm with you - IF in a future firmware update RED is able to add a Burst mode, I would be happy to see it and may even use it when a job has a last minute change to the boards (happens all the time in advertising). But I don't expect it.

 

[Timothy Carr]

Was it an actual shooting camera? Or was it an engineering mock-up / prototype? Lot's of cameras are announced with spec's that don't actually make it to the camera when it launches.

I'm with you - IF in a future firmware update RED is able to add a Burst mode, I would be happy to see it and may even use it when a job has a last minute change to the boards (happens all the time in advertising). But I don't expect it.

its a later video, but to my knowladge its the same specs http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=ZwVmKydHH-8

There are a few of them acctually

 

[Andy White]

A few people here have used the 'prototype' old Scarlet - with a fixed lens and interchangeable ones (eg Ketch & Joseph H etc).

But that was a RED cam based on 3K 'max' performance.

The new Scarlet is simply an 'Epic Lite' - that's missing certain items and/or is running less powerful internals - so, whilst RED may have a proto working, it might not be the easy move you suspect in getting that over to the current Scarlet - which is, when all is said, an Epic without 5K motion, advanced HRDX and overcrank.

Where you around on the NOV announcement last year? This is when old spec gave way to new... and many potential Scarlet users were unhappy, whilst other embraced the new Scarlet as the baby Epic (at a price point they could afford).

Let's see what RED do.

I'd like to see power managemt (so better use of batteries) and maybe a power 'sleep' mode etc, to stop chewing through power on location... but, RED surprise us often with new features in 'groups'.

But the new & old Scarlets aren't good fro direct comparisons.

 

[Carmine Scalzi]

+1!!!

A few people here have used the 'prototype' old Scarlet - with a fixed lens and interchangeable ones (eg Ketch & Joseph H etc).

But that was a RED cam based on 3K 'max' performance.

The new Scarlet is simply an 'Epic Lite' - that's missing certain items and/or is running less powerful internals - so, whilst RED may have a proto working, it might not be the easy move you suspect in getting that over to the current Scarlet - which is, when all is said, an Epic without 5K motion, advanced HRDX and overcrank.

Where you around on the NOV announcement last year? This is when old spec gave way to new... and many potential Scarlet users were unhappy, whilst other embraced the new Scarlet as the baby Epic (at a price point they could afford).

Let's see what RED do.

I'd like to see power managemt (so better use of batteries) and maybe a power 'sleep' mode etc, to stop chewing through power on location... but, RED surprise us often with new features in 'groups'.

But the new & old Scarlets aren't good fro direct comparisons.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I don't think red would have changed the hardware to a lower spec from that version to todays scarlet, so he is saying that if a lower end model does it, the higher end should be able to...

It's not as black and white as that. Balancing features:cost was obviously a complex trade off. Comparing an S35 camera with resolution>3k to a 2/3 with resolution of 3k and under just isn't apples:apples. To say that one is of higher specs than the other and therefore should, as a logical extrapolation, only add additional features (And do it at low cost) just does not compute. Folks have tried to speculate the reasons why.

Some have hypothesized that the 2/3 achieved it's high frame rates by employing a buffer. It is logical that an equally able buffer on S35 would have to be significantly larger and therefore more expensive. When cutting costs and differentiating product lines it would make sense to trim the budget there, so maybe Scarlet X has no such buffer. Maybe it does. We don't know that. Why not just ask those who do know if it is possible?

It's cool to hope for and ask for more features, but assuming it must be possible without adding cost doesn't seem so reasonable. What seems reasonable to me is that Red may have added 100fps @2k before offering 1k if it were at all possible, though I could be wrong.

 

[Timothy Carr]

A few people here have used the 'prototype' old Scarlet - with a fixed lens and interchangeable ones (eg Ketch & Joseph H etc).

But that was a RED cam based on 3K 'max' performance.

The new Scarlet is simply an 'Epic Lite' - that's missing certain items and/or is running less powerful internals - so, whilst RED may have a proto working, it might not be the easy move you suspect in getting that over to the current Scarlet - which is, when all is said, an Epic without 5K motion, advanced HRDX and overcrank.

Where you around on the NOV announcement last year? This is when old spec gave way to new... and many potential Scarlet users were unhappy, whilst other embraced the new Scarlet as the baby Epic (at a price point they could afford).

Let's see what RED do.

I'd like to see power managemt (so better use of batteries) and maybe a power 'sleep' mode etc, to stop chewing through power on location... but, RED surprise us often with new features in 'groups'.

But the new & old Scarlets aren't good fro direct comparisons.

oh, definitely! Intact, i would love these 3 things:
Power managment
burst mode
Better in camera playback

 

[Timothy Carr]

It's not as black and white as that. Balancing features:cost was obviously a complex trade off. Comparing an S35 camera with resolution>3k to a 2/3 with resolution of 3k and under just isn't apples:apples. To say that one is of higher specs than the other and therefore should, as a logical extrapolation, only add additional features (And do it at low cost) just does not compute. Folks have tried to speculate the reasons why.

Some have hypothesized that the 2/3 achieved it's high frame rates by employing a buffer. It is logical that an equally able buffer on S35 would have to be significantly larger and therefore more expensive. When cutting costs and differentiating product lines it would make sense to trim the budget there, so maybe Scarlet X has no such buffer. Maybe it does. We don't know that. Why not just ask those who do know?

It's cool to hope for and ask for more features, but assuming it must be possible without adding cost doesn't seem so reasonable.

I wassnt assuming in that way. The 2/3 chip has less/res size therefore faster readout. But the possibility of the camera to do burst modes is not dead. I see you his saying stuff, but have no facts/specks to support it. You don't know what the specks are and neither do I. Now can we stop arguing about if its possible please? Lets just cross our fingers and hope that its possible.

 

[Scott Crawley]

It's true we don't know if it can be done. That is why I suggest that you just ask someone who does know.

I'm not arguing with you and never was. I don't claim to know what is possible and what is not. You posed a question, others and I have made an effort to think it through and explore possible reasons why things are as they are, and if what you wish is possible. I'm sorry you find it so disagreeable.

It is clear that we each have a different understanding of things. "The 2/3 chip has less/res size therefore faster readout." 2/3 and it's lower resolution =less data at the same speeds. I think that is the relevant bit. Maybe we are trying to say the same thing here?

Edit: conversely a system recording 4k 120fps has to store more data and do it faster than a 3k system, so the 2/3 buffer could be slower. Smaller and slowerbuffers are less expensive.

I wassnt assuming in that way. The 2/3 chip has less/res size therefore faster readout. But the possibility of the camera to do burst modes is not dead. I see you his saying stuff, but have no facts/specks to support it. You don't know what the specks are and neither do I. Now can we stop arguing about if its possible please? Lets just cross our fingers and hope that its possible.

 

[Antonio Ribeiro]

Hey all, i was looking at some other types of cameras, and was wondering this: Why havent red released a firmware upgrade to do slow motion FPS (120fps or above for scarlet, like 900 for epic) at 2k (or 1080p) in a "burst" of say 10 seconds? I know nobody high up enough is going to be reading this, but i really hope this sort of thing can be released. I mean the hardware surly can handle it, right?

EDIT: sorry guys, i spelt the poll name wrong. damn iphones...

No, no! Bust is good!

 

[Dane Henry]

No it wouldn't. The epic does 300 at 2k.... And if it's a burst it doesn't even touch the r1.

Agreed, and Epic does 120 @ 5k!!! So a burst mode for Scarlet at 120 @ 2k does not come close to cannibalizing Epic. I think it makes alot of sense for the camera and the new customer base for Scarlet.

-Dane

 

[Brent G Miller Jr]

Yeah i know. I dont think you understand what i mean.

Do people actually read anymore? Do to bandwidth, he's saying a firmware UPDATE that allows the Scarlet to shoot at higher bitrates for short bursts such as 4k @60 or 3k @ 60...

 

[Gary Paul Walker]

Ha!

Quiet please.
Turn over.
Scene 21 take...CUT.

"Damn. Do we really have to shoot this scene in burst mode?"

Isn't this already the situation when trying to run off Redvolts

1. turn camera on
2. record a scene
3. turn camera off

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Just killed a bunch of pointless and insulting posts. Let's try to play nice and leave personal attacks off the forums.

 

[Lliam Worthington]

Isn't this already the situation when trying to run off Redvolts

1. turn camera on
2. record a scene
3. turn camera off

Indeed )

Or worse, insert fresh redvolt, turn camera on, actor asks question, forget to turn camera off, discuss said question, go to press record, need to change afore mentioned redvolt... Repeat.

)

 

[Tom Gray]

Look at it this way. I've watched hundreds upon hundreds of old warner bros and others pictures back in the day and never saw one slomo shot... ever, or that hand held crap that they call fart upps, ART! The problem today is they are making the cameraman tell the story in place of the good dialog that just the very few can write. The art of cinema photography is all but lost to creepy, greedy, smelly producers that just can't make enough money fast enough. NO STICKS NO DOLLY brakes the forth wall just as fast as the actor looking into the glass. It tells the audience this is being filmed or vlimed as I like to call it, not film not video! I don't know if anybody remembers but this is suppose to be a "fantasy" experience but every time the camera bounces around it tells me this is no longer a story but is a poor job of trying to make a feature motion picture. My suggestion to you, if you are a 15 year old kid trying to get in to making films, is to knock on an retired old timers front door and ask him how they did it back in the day and learn correctly the ART of film making because apparently schools can't. sorry for the rant but someones got to say it...

 

[Tom Gray]

Look at it this way. I've watched hundreds upon hundreds of old warner bros and others pictures back in the day and never saw one slomo shot... ever, or that hand held crap that they call fart upps, ART! The problem today is they are making the cameraman tell the story in place of the good dialog that just the very few can write. The art of cinema photography is all but lost to creepy, greedy, smelly producers that just can't make enough money fast enough. NO STICKS NO DOLLY brakes the forth wall just as fast as the actor looking into the glass. It tells the audience this is being filmed or vlimed as I like to call it, not film not video! I don't know if anybody remembers but this is suppose to be a "fantasy" experience but every time the camera bounces around it tells me this is no longer a story but is a poor job of trying to make a feature motion picture. My suggestion to you, if you are a 15 year old kid trying to get in to making films, is to knock on an retired old timers front door and ask him how they did it back in the day and learn correctly the ART of film making because apparently schools can't. sorry for the rant but someones got to say it...

sorry "breaks"

 

[Tom Gray]

Yeah i know. I dont think you understand what i mean.

Look at it this way. I've watched hundreds upon hundreds of old warner bros and others pictures back in the day and never saw one slomo shot... ever, or that hand held crap that they call fart upps, ART! The problem today is they are making the cameraman tell the story in place of the good dialog that just the very few can write. The art of cinema photography is all but lost to creepy, greedy, smelly producers that just can't make enough money fast enough. NO STICKS NO DOLLY breaks the forth wall just as fast as the actor looking into the glass. It tells the audience this is being filmed or vlimed as I like to call it, not film not video! I don't know if anybody remembers but this is suppose to be a "fantasy" experience but every time the camera bounces around it tells me this is no longer a story I'm lost in but is a poor job of trying to make a feature motion picture. My suggestion to you, if you are a 15 year old kid trying to get in to making films, is to knock on an retired old timers front door and ask him how they did it back in the day and learn correctly the ART of film making because apparently schools can't. sorry for the rant but someones got to say it... I put this in the wrong section the first time.

 

[Maik Müller]

Burst-mode.... hmmm, sure i would like to have more things to play with, but somehow i don't think this type of compromise is RED's way, it doesn't fit that good into their vision. I always saw the ability to choose lower resolutions with higher fps as RED's way to realize a burst-mode.

I don't think there is room to build something like a "traditional" burst-mode into EPIC/Scarlet, because they don't have those big bottlenecks that other cameras have. RED has built a completely new chipset to to be able to process 5k/4k, 16Bit, RAW images with high fps and they moved on to faster media. Slow media and slow (re-used) chipsets are the main reason why others built burst-modes around a puffer.

Ok, lets dicsuss this, what would be needed to do such a thing? A way to buffer raw images straight from the sensor into a big amount of RAM (don't forget, we're not playing with HD/8bit-stuff here). I don't think RED has gigabytes of unused RAM in every camera, so this probably needs to be done with another DSMC-module. But i'm also not sure about the possibilities to get around the encoder, the whole system looks to me like it is designed around the one and only task to get images to the encoder and then to the media. Simple, but bulletproof and done in perfection.

Honestly, i don't think this would worth the effort, time and money. It's some a old concept with lots of compromises. RED is going a different route with upgrading the hardware (and again pushing it to its limits). Dragon is coming.