"Burst" mode possible?

[Brent G Miller Jr]

Indeed )

Or worse, insert fresh redvolt, turn camera on, actor asks question, forget to turn camera off, discuss said question, go to press record, need to change afore mentioned redvolt... Repeat.

)

ROFL!

 

[Gary Paul Walker]

Indeed )

Or worse, insert fresh redvolt, turn camera on, actor asks question, forget to turn camera off, discuss said question, go to press record, need to change afore mentioned redvolt... Repeat.

)

Moral of the story : DONT TALK TO ACTORS

 

[Tom Gray]

Hey all, i was looking at some other types of cameras, and was wondering this: Why havent red released a firmware upgrade to do slow motion FPS (120fps or above for scarlet, like 900 for epic) at 2k (or 1080p) in a "burst" of say 10 seconds? I know nobody high up enough is going to be reading this, but i really hope this sort of thing can be released. I mean the hardware surly can handle it, right?

EDIT: sorry guys, i spelt the poll name wrong. damn iphones...

burst would depend upon buffer... RAM, the bigger the ram the more burst + dependent on speed of overflow ram.

 

[Mike P.]

What about 4.5k WS (4608x1920 = 8.85mp per frame)? It's the same pixel filtrate as 4k (4096x2160 = 8.85mp per frame)... The RED1 does it and it just looks that much nicer when supersampled down to 1080p (plus, as with the R1, it actually resolves to about 4k instead of "just" 3.2k). I'd rather have 4.5k than a burst mode I think.

 

[Jon Jones]

I think burst mode would be possible in the SCARLET body, I mean after all it does shoot 3k HDRx, which is 2 3k channels, equaling 6k in size. Obviously the camera can do more than what we know, just like the GH2 and AF100 having the same basic guts, but one is the pro line and one is not. I am not against that, I think it's really business smart to consolidate parts so that manufacturing is a heck of a lot faster, and it actually brings the price way down on both items, since they don't have to worry about manufacturing 2 separate lines of guts for both cameras. Anything extra that we can get out of the SCARLET for creativity is awesome, and RED is just the company to do so. No other camera company in the world would even attempt this.

 

[Rodrigo Prata]

I think burst mode would be possible in the SCARLET body, I mean after all it does shoot 3k HDRx, which is 2 3k channels, equaling 6k in size. Obviously the camera can do more than what we know, just like the GH2 and AF100 having the same basic guts, but one is the pro line and one is not. I am not against that, I think it's really business smart to consolidate parts so that manufacturing is a heck of a lot faster, and it actually brings the price way down on both items, since they don't have to worry about manufacturing 2 separate lines of guts for both cameras. Anything extra that we can get out of the SCARLET for creativity is awesome, and RED is just the company to do so. No other camera company in the world would even attempt this.

2 X 3K is not equal to 6K.

2X 3K would be coles to 9.9 MP and 6K is more like 20 MP.

 

[Jon Jones]

Hmmm, what you just said doesn't make sense... At least in my mind. Every frame on the SCARLET is 14MP, and as far as I know HDRx is the same in that in each channel of 3k lies 14MP still images. So 2 channels of video, each differing in stops and each channel is carrying 14MP stills. However I may be totally wrong, the HDRx may not be like that at all.

2 X 3K is not equal to 6K.

2X 3K would be coles to 9.9 MP and 6K is more like 20 MP.

 

[Maik Müller]

2 3k images don't equal 1 6k image. The naming does give you just the width, but doesn't get the picture more lines too?
So, doing the math: 3072*1536 makes 4718592 pixels while 6144*3072 makes 18874368 pixels, which means 6k produces 4 times the data of 3k.

A burst-mode would need lots of ram already included in EPIC and Scarlet, i don't think RED built that in and left it useless for the whole time. For me, a burst-mode is just a workaround for bottlenecks of yesterdays cameras, one that doesn't fit into the RED-design. I also think RED is honest when saying that EPIC and Scarlet are already pushed to its limits. And don't forget, Scarlet is not only limited by encoding-power.

@Mike P., yeah i would love to get more .5 and WS/HD-modes, even without more fps. 4.5k would be awesome.

 

[Timothy Carr]

2 3k images don't equal 1 6k image. The naming does give you just the width, but doesn't get the picture more lines too?
So, doing the math: 3072*1536 makes 4718592 pixels while 6144*3072 makes 18874368 pixels, which means 6k produces 4 times the data of 3k.

A burst-mode would need lots of ram already included in EPIC and Scarlet, i don't think RED built that in and left it useless for the whole time. For me, a burst-mode is just a workaround for bottlenecks of yesterdays cameras, one that doesn't fit into the RED-design. I also think RED is honest when saying that EPIC and Scarlet are already pushed to its limits. And don't forget, Scarlet is not only limited by encoding-power.

@Mike P., yeah i would love to get more .5 and WS/HD-modes, even without more fps. 4.5k would be awesome.

Well, burst mode MIGHT be possible, but i dont think 4.5k would be possible unless its at 19fps or something crazy. You would have to use twixtor to fix it, then blame the artifacts on the compression

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Since burst mode was planned for Scarlet, for the S35 as well as for all others, the idea of higher fps burst modes seem to be a good thing in the eyes of the powers at RED.

How hard this is to achieve with the existing hardware, I - and probably mostly all of us - have no clue.
The old S35 Scarlet was planned with 30fps@5K in mind with a burst of 72fps@5K and 150fps@3K bursts for the 2/3". But then again a lot has changed since then.

All I know is: if RED can make it happen, they will make it happen! And I truly believe that. I don't believe in any hold-back-schemes coming from RED.
A higher fps burst mode on SCARLET would not cannibalize any EPIC sales. There's a world of difference between non-stop 120fps@5K and an activated burst mode on SCARLET. No matter what resolution.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

On the other framing options:

If you do some simple data rate math, 5K WS@24fps and 4.5K@30fps might be possible for SCARLET. And I certainly would love these options!
(Of course only if data rate is the only thing you have to include in that equation, which I'm certainly not sure about. But it's the only possible comparison from an outside view.)

 

[Maik Müller]

Since burst mode was planned for Scarlet, for the S35 as well as for all others, the idea of higher fps burst modes seem to be a good thing in the eyes of the powers at RED.

Yeah, i remember that roadmap-picture too, but i think this was before RED started to use SSDs. Planning a burst-mode made a lot more sense back in the time of cf-cards and spinning drives. Now we have fast SSDs, with even faster ones in the pipe, and EPIC can do up to 120fps in 5kWS.

Here's the picture:

This clearly was before the plans around Scarlet changed. Interesting thing is, there was never a burstmode planned for EPIC, only for old Scarlet-designs. Now think about the changes that Scarlet had gone through. I'm pretty sure all the needed hardware for a burstmode has been dropped when RED decided to do Scarlet-X how it is done now.

How hard this is to achieve with the existing hardware, I - and probably mostly all of us - have no clue.

Do you think we have gigabytes of RAM in our cams for the needed buffer? Currently unused of course, and maybe never planned for EPIC's design on which Scarlet-X now relies, more than before.

All I know is: if RED can make it happen, they will make it happen! And I truly believe that. I don't believe in any hold-back-schemes coming from RED.
A higher fps burst mode on SCARLET would not cannibalize any EPIC sales. There's a world of difference between non-stop 120fps@5K and an activated burst mode on SCARLET. No matter what resolution.

I wouldn't bet on that, but yeah, maybe they'll make it happen somehow. A burstmode-buffer-module is thinkable. But how much would you pay for a few seconds? And keep in mind, RED has already teased us how they plan to archive higher framerates, with a hardware-upgrade (Dragon).

If you do some simple data rate math, 5K WS@24fps and 4.5K@30fps might be possible for SCARLET. And I certainly would love these options!

Yeah, with a bit of math it seems to be so close. Hehe.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Yeah, i remember that roadmap-picture too, but i think this was before RED started to use SSDs. Planning a burst-mode made a lot more sense back in the time of cf-cards and spinning drives. Now we have fast SSDs, with even faster ones in the pipe, and EPIC can do up to 120fps in 5kWS.

Those were the days! Hehehe! It sure was quite some time before the SSD time. hehehe That's what I meant with "a whole lot changed since then" and "How hard this is with the existing hardware"... Since we don't know what the plans were back than hardware wise and what it exactly is that changed on the interior, this is all highly speculative.

Do you think we have gigabytes of RAM in our cams for the needed buffer?

Never thought, never said, never implied it All in all I guess you misunderstood my post a bit. This is exactly what I was talking about. But maybe I misread yours... hehehe. We're all good, just teasing!

I wouldn't bet on that, but yeah, maybe they'll make it happen somehow.

I wouldn't bet on it either. Not at all. What I meant is that if this is at all possible for them, they will do it sometime.
I don't believe that RED is a company holding back on features on purpose. And this belief is why I bought a RED and not a SONY

Yeah, with a bit of math it seems to be so close. Hehe.

Hehehe true that. And it's so much fun to use it for stupid speculative purposes... I made a little sheet with possible fps through data rate math juggling. It's just plain old fun. Need some math from time to time to get away from working with and looking at pictures ... hehehe

 

[Steve Phillipps]

A burst-mode would need lots of ram already included in EPIC and Scarlet, i don't think RED built that in and left it useless for the whole time.

I get the feeling there must be a RAM buffer in there somewhere as that's how a pre-roll feature works, and that has been promised and been confirmed that it doesn't require extra hardware as far as I'm aware?

Steve

 

[Scott Crawley]

I get the feeling there must be a RAM buffer in there somewhere as that's how a pre-roll feature works, and that has been promised and been confirmed that it doesn't require extra hardware as far as I'm aware?

Steve

Pre-roll would be nice, and it is something that goes hand in hand with high speed as you say. I wasn't aware that had been on the docket. Just the same a short pre-roll and a high speed buffer are vastly different in size. I would remain cautiously optimistic.

 

[Steve Phillipps]

I thought there was plenty of talk on here about pre-roll, and that official answers from RED said that it is still on the roadmap and would require no additional hardware, I'll try to dig out the link unless someone else has it at hand!
In a funny sort of way preroll in most cameras tend not to go with highspeed - seems to stress out the processing powers on things like the P2 Varicams, as you have preroll in sync speeds but not in variable frame rate mode - which, as you suggest, is exactly when you need it!!!
Steve

 

[Steve Phillipps]

Here we are http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?81343-Time-Lapse-Is-it-coming&highlight=cache, it's mentioned in post #8 in this thread - it is Epic rather than Scarlet though, maybe Scarlet won't be able to have it?
Steve

 

[Mike P.]

How would 5k WS be possible? I'm going under the idea that 4096x2160 = ~8.85megs/frame = 4608x1920 (4.5k at 2.40:1 WS/Crop)... 5k WS is way more than that per frame (it's like 10 or 12meg/frame). Or are you going using 24 vs 30fps and comparing the total per second filtrate? If so, that's not a reasonable assumption (4.5k is perfectly reasonable though).

 

[Scott Crawley]

I thought there was plenty of talk on here about pre-roll, and that official answers from RED said that it is still on the roadmap and would require no additional hardware, I'll try to dig out the link unless someone else has it at hand!
In a funny sort of way preroll in most cameras tend not to go with highspeed - seems to stress out the processing powers on things like the P2 Varicams, as you have preroll in sync speeds but not in variable frame rate mode - which, as you suggest, is exactly when you need it!!!
Steve

I was referring to specialized high speed cameras... pre-roll is a must have feature.

Here we are http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?81343-Time-Lapse-Is-it-coming&highlight=cache, it's mentioned in post #8 in this thread - it is Epic rather than Scarlet though, maybe Scarlet won't be able to have it?
Steve

Thanks

 

[Steve Phillipps]

There seemed to be a bit of debate and uncertainty about how the the FS700 does slow motion bursts. At upto 240fps it appears that it is 100% full resolution, for upto 10 seconds, which is very impressive. One slight problem (for some) is that it appears that it won't work with external recorders as it doesn't play at realtime speed through the HDMI, it write to the internal card at 3x speed - good because its quick, but I'm sure that means it won't work with Nanoflash etc. I'm sure this could be easily solved with firmware. This does mean that you're left with the 28 mb/s codec, which for some is fine, but for many is not good enough.
This is different to cameras like the Phantom, where once you've got your burst stored in RAM you can play it back at normal speed, even set in and out points instead saving the whole file, whereas the Sony seemingly doesn't give you any options - as soon as you finish the recording it writes to card immediately, and all you do is cancel it or let it record.
Steve